Event Name - 0219-- How pedagogical environments can learn-An analysis... (RRL272874) Julian Kilker: Hello folks... Chris Huang: Hi Chris Huang: Sorry I was reading the session description. Julian Kilker: no problem---we'll get started in a few minutes... Chris Huang: ok Chris Huang: hi, IskandarH, you are in every session. Iskandar Hack: Hello Julian Julian Kilker: Iskandar, hello! Chris Huang: ok Chris Huang: hi, Gail. Gail Rathbun: Hi, Chris Gail Rathbun: Julian, hello. I can tell you that I have been "arguing" for involvement of teachers in designing the environment for years. But still we have Julian Kilker: Helo, Gail...yes... Gail Rathbun: interfaces that put Syllabus as a button at the bottom because it begins with S, at the end of the alphabet Julian Kilker: Should we get started, or wait a minute or two? Chris Huang: I am ok either way. Gail Rathbun: Iskandar, shall we wait a few moments? Iskandar Hack: go ahead Julian Kilker: ok, will do! Julian Kilker: Welcome... Iskandar Hack: the sessons today have been very light Julian Kilker: ...it's a Friday on a holiday weekend... Chris Huang: I am the perminent resident here. Chris Huang: on the cyber space. Julian Kilker: I just want to get a quick reading of the background of people present. Have each of you used either Blackboard or WebCT? Chris Huang: Yes, both. More on WebCT Vista. Gail Rathbun: I have used Vista and helped created Oncourse at IU Gail Rathbun: I have taught online without either Julian Kilker: Great...these points will really make sense to both of you. Chris Huang: That's an interesting topic. Julian Kilker: This project is a part of a larger project that looks at user interfaces, control, and social shaping of media technologies. I've looked at consumer techs before, in an article in Convergence. Julian Kilker: I’ll use some references in the slides...these are in the paper that’s available for downloading. Julian Kilker: For the first few slides I’ll go through without too much commentary...please feel free to stop me at any point Chris Huang: ok Julian Kilker: ...to ask a question or to let me know about meta-issues (go slower, back up, etc.). I’ll have more commentary when I get to the graphical example slides. Julian Kilker: This is the first time that I’m using Centra as a presenter, so let me know if I’m doing anything wrong! Chris Huang: ok Julian Kilker: I've been struck by some of the similarities between physical and online design of pedagigcal spaces... Chris Huang: true of 4 points. Julian Kilker: ...but it seems, for point 4, that there are very limited means of influencing design for the main "players" Julian Kilker: We as instructors/teachers might be experts in course cotent, but--in physical spaces--we also have to be experts in interaction Chris Huang: I am just the opposite. Chris Huang: I am a designer. Chris Huang: But I do agree with you. Julian Kilker: I'm thinking here of the typical classroom teacher--who should (ideally) know content and how to work with students...examples coming up Julian Kilker: Chris, are you an instructional designer? Chris Huang: Yes. Chris Huang: Also a multimedia developer. Julian Kilker: That's an interesting development in education...we've split expertise into content area expert and designer. Julian Kilker: OK to go on to next slide? Gail Rathbun: Nothing new Chris Huang: yes. Chris Huang: ok Julian Kilker: There are many other examples, of course... Julian Kilker: This is an example in physical space of a serious design problem...leading to my suggestion that Julian Kilker: ...we should pay more attention to existing research in other domains (e.g., architecture). Chris Huang: This is very interesting. Gail Rathbun: Alexander? Julian Kilker: Thanks, Julian Kilker: ... Julian Kilker: Alexander is def. one possibility--one that I like. Gail Rathbun: Mitchell? Julian Kilker: The idea of environments "learning" is from Brand. Gail Rathbun: and maybe Schon? Gail Rathbun: Thanks, I'd like to look up Brand Julian Kilker: Def. Schon, yes, although I don't ref him in this paper. Gail Rathbun: Sorry to interrrupt can you explain envionments learning Julian Kilker: I also incorporate refs to schools of architecture that specialize in physical pedagogical environments. Julian Kilker: Yes. This will (I hope) become more apparent as we continue, but... Chris Huang: Architecture and Environmental design , That's my area of expertise. Chris Huang: This is very interesting. Gail Rathbun: OK Julian, please go on Julian Kilker: ...essentially it's the idea that objects should be malleable and modifiable--those that are not--that are too rigid--don't "learn" and adapt to new circumstances. Very impt for emerging techs such as online ed. Julian Kilker: Here's more of the explanation! Julian Kilker: This building is a few blocks from me right now...it's likely to be completely rebuilt at great cost soon. Julian Kilker: Most of the examples in this presentation Julian Kilker: are from my development, design, and teaching of an online course in the spring. Julian Kilker: I handled all tasks...from syllabus design to creating multimedia. Julian Kilker: which is what I've done in the past Julian Kilker: using basic websites to support my in-person course.for Julian Kilker: Sorry, I meant "courses." Julian Kilker: This project comes out of my surprise that...as Gail pointed out... Julian Kilker: ...the tools were so basic and flawed... Julian Kilker: This project is still in progress...I'm collecting more interviews... Julian Kilker: These are simple tasks... Julian Kilker: ...which is why it's so surprising that--in version *6* of the system--they're still so flawed... Julian Kilker: ...my goal here is to show that if the most basic and common tasks ... Julian Kilker: ... are so poorly designed, how can we take advantage of more advanced teaching techniques? Julian Kilker: One moment while I pull up the text... Julian Kilker: From an instructor’s perspective, Julian Kilker: a common task is to write messages to an entire class. The Blackboard system provides a method with limited usability typical of many functions of a web-based system. Julian Kilker: First, the instructor composes a message. Julian Kilker: The limited editing window restricts the author from seeing the complete messages. Julian Kilker: Instead, one must click on preview to open another window that displays the message (I must return to the first window to correct the typo that I noticed after reading the full paragraph) Julian Kilker: The preview window, however, does not display the subject title for checking and comparison with the message content. The overall problems here are feedback and flow Julian Kilker: Preparing and reviewing a message are considered two separate operations and are not gracefully interleaved. An additional complicating factor—due to the web-based environment—is that the window titles are confusing. Blackboard uses generic window titles (“Blackboard Learning System” and “Preview”) rather than unique names. Gail Rathbun: Whither Don Norman? Julian Kilker: Exactly. Julian Kilker: I use Norman (and Krug) in my own multimedia design courses. Julian Kilker: It takes students awhile to Julian Kilker: understand the relevance of old Norman (non-computer) Julian Kilker: to new (web sites). Julian Kilker: To conclude this slide... Julian Kilker: When working with multiple software applications and windows, as is common for multi-tasking students and instructors when transferring content from one application to another, the windows are difficult to distinguish from each other. Julian Kilker: ..because of the similar titles Gail Rathbun: But design knowledge and execcution is only part of the problem here. The other is work culture, politics, if you will. If we combine design knowledge with the ethos and spirit of participatory design we perhaps would not be here discussing this. Julian Kilker: I agree -- but what would we ideally be doing... Julian Kilker: A major part of the problem is that of modularizing. Julian Kilker: One of the reasons this course was so problematic was... Julian Kilker: ...that it was primarily a discussion course, and the tools... Julian Kilker: ...favored a lecture style. Julian Kilker: No surprise, given their genesis in computer science departments. Julian Kilker: For this slide: Julian Kilker: Interface cues should be clear, especially when content is being deleted, yet references are ambiguous or settings unstated for many common tasks in Blackboard. Gail Rathbun: Odd, computer science would seem to me to be veery hands on Julian Kilker: But also very tool-focused, not socially-focused, which is Julian Kilker: ...a major part of interactions. Julian Kilker: It's often hard to argue, Julian Kilker: in a technical setting, for UI design, and Julian Kilker: to advocate for endusers. Julian Kilker: (This is bulk of my research--collaboration ad design). Gail Rathbun: Yes, indeed, after 30 decades of arguing UI still has not won the day except in Europe perhaps Julian Kilker: That's why it's often useful Julian Kilker: ...to say "Look, architects have addressed many of these issues... Julian Kilker: ... in a different environment...perhaps we should take a look... Julian Kilker: which is why Alexander, Norman, Brand, etc are so popular among Gail Rathbun: Indeed many design schools in Europe have. Julian Kilker: thoughtful designers. Julian Kilker: Yes...Europe (and Canada) seem more fertile grounds for this. Gail Rathbun: I think that when designers get out into the world they throw UI design out the window. Julian Kilker: Also, Julian Kilker: it's no coincidence, I believe, that Moodle comes out of Australia. Gail Rathbun: Tell us about Moodle Julian Kilker: Can I get to that a little later, so I can finish with the examples...? Gail Rathbun: :-) Julian Kilker: ALmost done...I' Julian Kilker: I'll just lose my place! Julian Kilker: For slide: Interface cues should be clear, especially when content is being deleted, yet references are ambiguous or settings unstated for many common tasks in Blackboard. Julian Kilker: Similarly, course designers have the ability to color-code course content links—all Julian Kilker: (Those black rectangles are m-dashes) Julian Kilker: links—all of the optional readings can be a specific green, for example—yet the “ColorPicker” tool, which has very subtle variations of color, neither indicates the current color setting nor allows specific colors to be labeled for consistent use. Julian Kilker: Here comes the Norman... Gail Rathbun: I saw him coming Julian Kilker: After announcements are created, they are posted on the main page of the course site... Julian Kilker: Usually announcements are posted in reverse chronological order, with new postings listed at the top. Students can scroll down the list to retrieve old postings. Julian Kilker: Blackboard has the option to force a (presumably important) posting to remain at the top of the list, which means that the top posting is no longer the most recent Julian Kilker: (in this figure, a June 22 message is apparently listed as more recent than a June 25 message). This “breaks” the chronological model usually apparent on the front page. If instructors are not aware of this subtlety, or if administrators force messages to the top, students are likely to overlook all new postings. Julian Kilker: (This is what happened to me during the course.) Julian Kilker: I kept on battling with admin... Gail Rathbun: Yes, why should you have to think about that kind of situation! Julian Kilker: ...over how to phrase the message. Obviously, I had nothing against the message Julian Kilker: ...but, as in a normal in-person course... Julian Kilker: I wanted the ability to control when, where, and how the message would be displayed! Julian Kilker: (In this case, the written tone was very different from my course's, and I thought it would discourage feedback) Julian Kilker: Moving, copying, and deleting course content is common during course development Julian Kilker: as instructors organize and fine-tune their courses Julian Kilker: Rather than the “click and drag” technique familiar from a windowing environment, in which icons representing files and folders are moved, duplicated, and “trashed,” Julian Kilker: Blackboard’s current interface requires an instructor to follow a laborious sequence of steps to move content. In addition, the interface terminology is imprecise Julian Kilker: The same screen is used for both the copy and move functions, but the difference between them is indicated by different terminology in the question “Delete item after copy?” Julian Kilker: ...and this is the final section... Julian Kilker: (I just ran into a UI problem with Centra.) Gail Rathbun: NO kidding! Julian Kilker: (I clicked on clear to clear my message box.) Julian Kilker: (Because it had too many typos.) Julian Kilker: (And I cleared the entire transcript...) Julian Kilker: (And there's no undo.) Gail Rathbun: Try Refresh Chris Huang: That's even worse. Chris Huang: did you try Ctrl+Z? Julian Kilker: That did it at my end. Terrible! Gail Rathbun: Does Refresh under Action help? Gail Rathbun: I can save this chat log and send it to Sam Birk for posting so continue if you can Julian Kilker: Refresh did the job. Thanks, Gail. Great example for what I'm just talking about . Gail Rathbun: You bet! Julian Kilker: OK, back to this slide. Julian Kilker: One might expect an interface designed to support educational contexts to incorporate pedagogical considerations. Standard user interface literature holds that interfaces should be forgiving and thus encourage exploration, yet if a mistake is made one cannot turn to the “undo” function common in other user interfaces. Julian Kilker: (What a coincidence...) Julian Kilker: (As we have seen above, with the warning about “removing an item,” there are periodic checkpoints during which users can make choices, but choices are meaningless unless users know their implications.) Julian Kilker: There is no clear contextual help function—with, for example, a clickable question mark next to important or confusing choices Julian Kilker: Common groups of actions cannot be saved for future use or to document that they have been implemented. (This is especially useful for people managing multiple courses.) Julian Kilker: (I know that some of this has been addressed in Vista...) Julian Kilker: While a “content receipt” is generated as feedback for a successful operation... Julian Kilker: , it does not indicate details about the action it is confirming, nor does it document a list of actions in a task, nor does it allow actions to be saved. Julian Kilker: An ideal model here is the “history” function in Adobe Photoshop, which maintains a list of task steps that can be viewed, saved, and modified. Julian Kilker: If an action is not successful, feedback is also parsimonious. Julian Kilker: From a pedagogical perspective, mistakes are an educational opportunity. A pedagogically-focused environment should reduce opportunities for error, provide error feedback that facilitates the intended action, and, if it can be inferred, provide contextual information about the error. Julian Kilker: The error message here results from my attempt to view the “Dropbox” from the perspective of a student so that I can respond to a question about submitting an assignment. In this version of Blackboard, I am prevented from taking on the student persona—a serious problem. Julian Kilker: (In this case... Gail Rathbun: Instead you have to refer the Q to a tech who will take 2 days to respond Julian Kilker: ...I couldn't guide students through the process of saving a file when they had problems.) Julian Kilker: OK, back to fewer comments... Gail Rathbun: You have to apply for a student account! Julian Kilker: Nuts. But I also have this problem on campus with web design. I have a faculty account, which is accessed differently than a student account (e.g., Julian Kilker: different password format), so I can't help confused students with specifics. Julian Kilker: It's a locus of control issue. Julian Kilker: For Norman folks, this is evident. Julian Kilker: Bu it's useful to summarize categories of problems for designers Julian Kilker: including those who've designed the major tools, Julian Kilker: who don't seem to be familiar with the concepts. Gail Rathbun: Lack of understanding of the extent to which teachers guide students or modify the built environment. Teacher is also tech. Julian Kilker: Do you mean "teaching is a technology" If so, I agree, as a process... Gail Rathbun: Should, yes. How do you implement this in a culture that considers teachers so narrowly Gail Rathbun: It is a political question, the subject of this conference Julian Kilker: Well, participatory design Julian Kilker: needs fertile ground. Julian Kilker: In the case of the typical academic setting Julian Kilker: it means find others of like mind (as with this conference), networking across Julian Kilker: and within campuses Julian Kilker: and setting up informal projects and contacts that can Julian Kilker: eventually--and hopefully--grow and gain enough attention to Julian Kilker: reach critical mass. Moodle, coming up... Julian Kilker: Zipping through these last few slides... Julian Kilker: OK, I'll start off with Moodle. Julian Kilker: (For more background, you can do the usual search on Moodle in goodle, etc) Gail Rathbun: Julian, this was a wonderful addition to our conference. These are issues that preoccupied me for a decade and I still love to crit interfaces. Julian Kilker: Thanks...these are just a few examples, as you know. Julian Kilker: But I think it's important to show that a very expensive tool Julian Kilker: might not be the best solution for every pedagogical context. Gail Rathbun: You would think that these interfaces would be designed better after these years of use. Is the excuse being web-based Gail Rathbun: You can't do things with the web that you could in a regular pp. Gail Rathbun: app Julian Kilker: Yes, that's part of it. Julian Kilker: IN part it's an issue of standards. Gail Rathbun: Lower standards for ed? Julian Kilker: I mean technical and UI standards in this case. Because people are comfortable using web browers, Julian Kilker: the thinking goes, Julian Kilker: that should find the web-based environments easy to use. Julian Kilker: But in practice Gail Rathbun: Uh unh Julian Kilker: we're used to using web tools in ways Julian Kilker: --in our own ways-- Julian Kilker: that already "break" the limited way that Julian Kilker: --in which--webct and blackboard work. Gail Rathbun: That is an interesting topic to research Julian Kilker: E.g., having to turn off popup blockers, not having multiple windows open, Julian Kilker: not, in some cases, using Julian Kilker: the "last page" arrow. Julian Kilker: My sense is that it would be much better to write an more immersive and carefully designed Gail Rathbun: Study the way people use the web interface to re-design these clunky CMSs Gail Rathbun: in order to re-design Julian Kilker: environment -- one that's standardized for education -- that would be downloaded for use. Gail Rathbun: The holy grail Chris Huang: If you don't like the software, have you ever think about programing and designing your own dynamic online applications? It is pretty easy you know. Julian Kilker: And not have to design around (and for people--to crudely work around--the limits of web page transactions). Perhaps Flash will be used for this... Gail Rathbun: Flash, I don't think so. Julian Kilker: I mention Flash, etc, because Julian Kilker: people are starting to do good interface work with it. Gail Rathbun: I don't want to design my own thing I just want something as easy to use as a classroom Julian Kilker: In the past, the UI's have been terrible, yes. Gail Rathbun: and a telephone Julian Kilker: I think that the model of current immersive 3-d games, old "MUD/MOO" environments had potential. Julian Kilker: I've found that in my intro to tech courses, Julian Kilker: students can still get up to speed quickly Julian Kilker: with one of the old MOOs. But they think they're old fashioned--like a BW movie. Gail Rathbun: What's needed is really good activities and content embedded in the game. This takes lots of thought Julian Kilker: Yes, LOTS of thought--but so does the design of a good work assignment. Gail Rathbun: It has to have a goal, challenge, relevancy, particularly for women Gail Rathbun: Precisely, it;s the same kind of thought Julian Kilker: In terms of technological empowerment? (For women?) Gail Rathbun: But just more of it Julian Kilker: Moodle is very interesting because Gail Rathbun: I studied girls and games and to be honest, they just don't pull girls in like they do guys Julian Kilker: it's based on a constructivist approach. Gail Rathbun: Games girls like either have empathetic interfaces or they are based completely on social interaction. Julian Kilker: (Whoops -- regarding games--Myst was a good example, and I believe LambdaMOO had a better F/M ratio than most games.) Julian Kilker: There's an extensive "modding" culture online. Gail Rathbun: Julian, I am reaaly sorry but I have to leave the session. I am going to look at your paper in greater depth. This has been a very good session. Good-bye! Julian Kilker: Glad to have your feedback--good luck! Julian Kilker: Chris, do you have questions? Iskandar Hack: Guess not :) Iskandar Hack: Good discussion I see between you Gail. Julian Kilker: Well..Iskandar--any from you? Julian Kilker: If not, I have one for you... Chris Huang: No Iskandar Hack: To be honest I was in another room as a particiapant and just been scanning the discussion Iskandar Hack: go ahead. Chris Huang: Nope Julian Kilker: Iskandar and Chris--How does this presentation fit within the general tone of the others? (One of the odd results of being online is that I don't get much of a feel for the rest of the conference) Julian Kilker: And...Chris...any suggestions? Iskandar Hack: It was very well done from what I saw. Some of the presenters did not really present anything - just an open chat session. Iskandar Hack: The format from session to session varied a great deal, and that's okay. Julian Kilker: Thanks... Julian Kilker: ...it's good to have the discussion online, but I had hoped to go deeper into the topic. Iskandar Hack: Thank you, if it wasn't for the presenters we have no conference :) Julian Kilker: I'll logoff and save the session. Julian Kilker: Take care! Iskandar Hack: okay, bye