Event Name - 0125--General Education Online--The Politics of Online... (WQR771964) Shelley Aley: Well, I made it as a participant. The event does not show up on my schedule, so I've enrolled and will participate. Iskandar Hack: When you enroll it should be added to your schedule Shelley Aley: When I enrolled, yes. It did add it. But I'm supposed to be a leader, and I cannot be part of this as a leader unless the session is listed that way for me. Shelley Aley: I sent you an email saying I was not showing up as a presenter. You sent the message on to someone who evidently thought I was added, because I got an email. According to directions, if I were added as a leader, I'd have the session showing up on my schedule with the option to join as a leader. That is not happening. Iskandar Hack: Let me try and change your status Shelley Aley: Pavel is showing up as a leader, so at least he can go in and add the PowerPoint presentation, if you can't add me. Pavel Zemliansky: Hi, everyone. Good to see you here. Please ask questions. Shelley Aley: As you can tell, I'm Shelley A, for Aley. I'm also presenting, but just not showing up as a presenter. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, Shelley and I are both able to answer your questions or discuss our paper. Shelley Aley: Glad to see you here. Pavel has the PowerPoint available now, if you have not seen it yet. Iskandar Hack: Shelly - I can't add you as a leader Donna Rosenberger: I have problems getting my Liberal Arts math students to write an evaluation of a web site without plagarizing. Shelley Aley: Iskandar, that's OK. Pavel got the PowerPoint displayed. Things are working, so we're fine. Iskandar Hack: Sorry, but go ahead Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, are you having them do the evaluations online or face to face? also, are they freshmen? Shelley Aley: Pavel, for some reason, I can't make the PowerPoint slides come up. Only the first one is showing. Pavel Zemliansky: Shelley, Pavel Zemliansky: how about now? Shelley Aley: Evidently, you have control of them, not us. Shelley Aley: Can you, as leader, change that for us. Pavel Zemliansky: O< so I will start with the first one. Just let me know when you want me to move on Shelley Aley: We should be able to click on them as we want. I think you can give us that power. Pavel Zemliansky: I wish I knew how. Iskandar, any ideas? Shelley Aley: Maybe in the meantime, you could go ahead and show us the Key Assumptions slide. Donna Rosenberger: I can see the slides. But I can not change them. Whoever is changing them is doing it too fast for me to read. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, everyone. Here are the key assumptions about online learning and learning of writing we based our argument upon. Donna Rosenberger: I teach at a Community College and have a mix of students. Most hate math. Shelley Aley: When we teach writing, including freshman composition, we try to create a classroom environment that enables community. Donna Rosenberger: They are suppose to find a Web site and write an evaluation of it in Microsoft Word. Shelley Aley: You teach math? Pavel Zemliansky: Sorry, Donna. We'll go slower with the slides. In response to your question, I would be interested to know how you phrase your assignment Shelley Aley: Some of the most important writing that goes on in any class requiring writing is the written assignment the teacher creates. Shelley Aley: For students to be independent learners, we need to create that kind of environment in the classroom--and that means in the virtual classroom when we teach online. Donna Rosenberger: This is a "Group" project. Each group has a different math topic. They are suppose to find a web site and write about "What I learned from this web site". Shelley Aley: So the group writes the paper? Donna Rosenberger: I love your phrase "Online Students should be independent learners." Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, if this is a group project and they are supposed to writer about what they learned, how do they plagiarize? Pavel Zemliansky: Since we are talking about writing, shall we move on to the next slide? Donna Rosenberger: A "Secretary" for the group puts the evaluations together into one page. Each group member is suppose to use a different Web site. Donna Rosenberger: Sure, I'm ready for a new slide. Shelley Aley: And this is an online course? Donna Rosenberger: Yes, I have three sections this semester, about 65 students. Shelley Aley: The group work required of this assignment works nicely with what we're saying on this slide. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, I think your students might think that as group members they have little responsibility for the project, since there is the secretary who does the compiling. Have you tried to get them to actually write the paper together? Shelley Aley: That's amazing. 65 total or 65 each section? Solomon Isiorho: hummm Donna Rosenberger: I think originally there were 73 total. But some never participate at all. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, this is a lot of students. Shelley Aley: You could enable a chat area for each group and give them good questions to discuss in relation to the assignment. That way all members of the group are using writing to communicate about the web site. Pavel Zemliansky: Hi, Solomon Donna Rosenberger: Solomon, are you an English teacher? Solomon Isiorho: Hi Pavel..I am in 2 sessions at the same time and attending to students Solomon Isiorho: science teacher Pavel Zemliansky: wow, you have a busy schedule today. It is interesting to talk to teachers from other disciplines. Donna Rosenberger: At a previous conference the presenter encouraged the use of "Discussion Boards" they have been working very well this semester. Shelley Aley: To hold all members of the group accountable, you need to divide the assignment into smaller sequences, and give each sequence a "grade" or some kind of credit that counts toward the entire project. Pavel Zemliansky: I think that some of the points about collaborative learning and creating a community which we are trying to make here really apply across disciplines. Donna Rosenberger: We use the "Blackboard" platform. Solomon Isiorho: that's true Pavel Zemliansky: I agree with Shelley, Donna. I also like the discussion boards. Also try to set up group pages within Blackboard where small groups can talk to one another. Pavel Zemliansky: I think this is in line with what we are saying in the paper and on the slide. I have found that online students like spaces on Blackboard where they can "meet" in small groups. Donna Rosenberger: Each Group does have a "Discussion Board" area and "Virtual Classroom" but most use emails to communicate. Shelley Aley: Each member of the group could then be responsible for writing up an overall response for one of the questions the group addressed. The paper could be organized along the lines of the questions. Pavel Zemliansky: Solomon, how do you use online spaces to teach science? Shelley Aley: In face, early in the work you do on this assignment, you could have the students come up with the questions within their groups and share the questions among the groups. Donna Rosenberger: This is the first semester I let the students comment and volunteer to work on a specific topic using the Discussion Board area. Two groups did end up forming because they all attend the same campus. CCAC has seven campuses near Pittsburgh. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, I agree with Shelley, inexperienced writers need a lot of "walking through the assignments." I don't know your situation well, of course, but I think some of the plagiarism you are seeing may also be untintentional. Donna Rosenberger: I'm ready for the next slide. Pavel Zemliansky: Ok, here its comes Shelley Aley: I try to diagnose plagiarism when I see it into one of two categories: intentional and unintentional. Donna Rosenberger: Centra is new to me, it is very sophisticated. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, yes, we have not used it much before either. Donna Rosenberger: I am trying to be more careful because I put the projects up online in my Web area. Shelley Aley: This is the key issue relating to our presentation. We are concerned that freshmen need more experience f2f before they are enrolled in online courses. Pavel Zemliansky: The key argument we are making in this paper is that often it is preferable to teach inexperienced writers face to face rather than online, or at least in a hybrid course because they need more guudance and daily contact with the teacher and their classmates. Shelley Aley: I think that some problems relating to plagiarism may be difficult to diagnose in freshmen when they are enrolled in online courses. Shelley Aley: Maybe we could go to the next slide. Pavel Zemliansky: OK Donna Rosenberger: I am trying to put the Web address here: http://web.acd.ccac.edu/~drosenberger/Links102_Sum04.html This has links to the projects done last summer. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, great, thanks for the address, I am trying to open the url right now. Shelley Aley: Do you ever feel pressure to teach online when you think the students may not be ready for it yet? Shelley Aley: I tried to copy the link, but it won't copy. Pavel Zemliansky: Shelley, pleasee ctrl+c after highlighting Donna Rosenberger: Is there a place in Centra that se can put up a web site? Donna Rosenberger: I am an adjunct at CCAC trying to find a full-time job. Internet classes are my "job security". They only offered me one regular class this fall. Shelley Aley: Thanks Shelley Aley: I got the link up. Shelley Aley: Donna, that's amazing. I guess that is the way it will be here, too, if we allow it to happen. Shelley Aley: We're trying to stave off General Education pressure to teach our freshmen online. Shelley Aley: Unless we can teach the distributed learing course, where we are teaching students on campus, we are trying to avoid online delivery. Donna Rosenberger: What are you saying is "amazing" ?Where is James Madison University? Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, we are obviously in a different situation here because we teach in a 4-year school. But I think that if you do have to teach online, in my experience, online classes tend to work better and students tend to invent more in them when they feel that they "own" the class. I am looking at some of the projects now. They look like summaries from somewhere else. Is this what you are concerned about? Pavel Zemliansky: JMU is in Harrisonburg, VA Shelley Aley: With distributed learing, we can still meet with students in confernces and small groups from time to time. This kind of arrangement seems successful. JMU is in Harrisonburg, VA. We're just about 2 hours southwest of D.C. Shelley Aley: Maybe switch to a new slide. Pavel Zemliansky: Done Pavel Zemliansky: In the paper, we are talking primarily about summer sesssion because this is when online classes at JMU are offered. these sessions run 4-6 weeks Donna Rosenberger: I like the "Distributed learning" idea. I had never heard that term. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, are your students pretty computer-savvy? Shelley Aley: While we can sort of drag our feet about online delivery for freshmen, it sounds like you have no power to make such choices. Donna Rosenberger: We are experimenting with "Web-enhanced" classes. I plan to teach a Trigonometry class in this format for the Spring. 60% of time in classroom Pavel Zemliansky: It sounds like the web-enhanced idea might work. Shelley Aley: By "web enhanced" do you mean that you use the web while also being in the f2f classroom? Donna Rosenberger: I taught a class in this format one semester. Then the college took the class out of the college course offerings. It was called "College Math II" for liberal arts majors. Shelley Aley: With distributed learing, the university saves classroom space. My course is not scheduled in a classroom. Any meetings I have I set up and hold in my office or the library. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, why did the college cancel the class? Donna Rosenberger: We use the Blackboard platform for these classes too. We meet every other week. On the off weeks I will have online quizes and Virtual chats. Donna Rosenberger: This really cuts down on my driving time, because I am 32 miles from campus. Pavel Zemliansky: To go back to your original question and to the points in our paper, I noticed after looking at the projects of your students that they are signed with one name, although, presumably, the whole group worked on them. I do think that if students have more sense of ownership and community in the class, they might plagiarize less. Shelley Aley: I drive about that far, too. But I'm concerned that you and your students aren't getting the most out of the experience you've having in the class. Pavel Zemliansky: I drive 60 miles each way. Shelley Aley: I agree with Pavel. Donna Rosenberger: Originally they had College Math I and College Math II, both using the same textbook. They essentially put both classes into one and changed the name to "Mathematical Concepts". It has been very nice to meet you. I feel like I have had a private conference! Pavel Zemliansky: I am enjoying the conversation, too. Pavel Zemliansky: We had two writing courses revised into one a year ago, too Pavel Zemliansky: Seems like this is the trend everywhene to cut costs Shelley Aley: A student told me yesterday that she took an online course last summer, didn't read a single reading assignment, wrote the assignments, and got an A. She was very concerned that she was able to do this. She felt that the online environment made it easy for her to "cheat" herself. Pavel Zemliansky: Wow, Shelley, that is disturbing. Solomon Isiorho: ethics? Shelley Aley: It is. This is a big ethical issue. Donna Rosenberger: Right, ethics! I wondered what you meant by "aren't getting the most out of the experience". Pavel Zemliansky: I think it is also the issue of how the assignments are written. If the students is able to write a paper without reading what is required, I'd say the assignment could have been constructed differently? Shelley Aley: I have a friend in community college where they meet to chat twice a week and meet f2f once a week. This is a literature course. She is in no way getting the same experience in this environment that she had in a f2f literature coures she had the semester before. She is very concerned. Pavel Zemliansky: Solomon, how do you cope with these problems in your science classes? Donna Rosenberger: This class is a "Survey" class. We cover Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Geometry, and a little Algebra. The Web project is just one part of the class. Shelley Aley: I agree that the way the course is set up, the way the assignments are written, and the way the students are enabled to work all matter the most in having a successful course--online or f2f. Donna Rosenberger: I agree that anyone who is "not proficient with technology" should not be taking an online class. Pavel Zemliansky: at the same time, I am far from confident that all students in f2f classes read everything I assign, too. Pavel Zemliansky: Shall we go to the next slide? Donna Rosenberger: What are you using "f2f" for? I had not seen that acronym. Pavel Zemliansky: face to face. Solomon Isiorho: I'm sorry I was away Shelley Aley: Also, what I'm concerned about, is the packaging of courses for online consumption. I think eventually textbook companies will create courses that we will merely facilitate. Shelley Aley: Face to face Solomon Isiorho: theproblem i have is with cheating during exams Pavel Zemliansky: and that would be bad (the facilitation) Shelley Aley: Welcome back, Solomon. Pavel Zemliansky: Solomon, online exams? Donna Rosenberger: I believe that most of my students do not read their math books. Solomon Isiorho: I think i reduced by randomizing the questions Solomon Isiorho: yes Donna Rosenberger: I have tried having more than one version of Math tests too. Pavel Zemliansky: Here at JMU lots of science and math teachers who teach online do f2f exams with proctors. They send students to a Sylvan center or something like that. Pavel Zemliansky: Next slide. Shelley Aley: Math would pose more opportunities for cheating, if you don't stay ahead of the game. Donna Rosenberger: For my online sections I have online quizes and three "Written Exams". It is amazing that students can "Ace" the quizes and Fail the Exams at the Testing Centers. Red Flag --> Cheating. Shelley Aley: As you can see, we'd like to keep freshmen out of online courses until they have had a f2f experience in college. Pavel Zemliansky: It is hard for us to know all the details of teaching math and science, but we do think that some of these issues of creating learning communities and vesting students with ownership and authority over the class might help across the disciplines. Pavel Zemliansky: and we believe that it is important for freshmen to start f2f, or at least in a web-enhanced class, rather than completely online Shelley Aley: The main effect of creating community is getting students involved in the discourse of the community. Shelley Aley: Often students write terribly in a new setting because they are uncomfortable with the new context. Shelley Aley: The language and conventions of math and science scare them to death. Pavel Zemliansky: I agree with Shelley. We have good students on the whole, but they are thrown off by college writing which is often different from what they are used to in high school Shelley Aley: When you go to a party where you don't know anyone, you may stand around silently until you see someone you know, and then you can go talk to them. Shelley Aley: In these classes, they may feel like the wallflower. Shelley Aley: Gosh, the first essay they write is sometimes just horrible. They use phrases like, "In today's modern society." When we see that phrase coming, we know they are very uncomfortable. Donna Rosenberger: I also used a "Personal Information" discussion board for the first time this semester. I was surprised at the number of entries made there and how the students interacted. Thanks for your time! Shelley Aley: And they try to write for the "professor." This can lead to some really horrible writing. Pavel Zemliansky: yes, the "in today's society" phrase is everywhere in the beginning. so, i think the same might be happening in your mathc classes. students are used to the "old" ways of talking about and doing math. Pavel Zemliansky: Donna, yes I have had great success with "personal information" type discussions Shelley Aley: We are just about out of time, it looks like. This has gone by fast. Pavel Zemliansky: OK, conclusions Shelley Aley: I've enjoyed the discussion and the insight into how you are using the online environment. Pavel Zemliansky: Actually, we have another 30 minutes Pavel Zemliansky: so if anyone wants to hang around, we can Donna Rosenberger: I need to take a break. I think I'll try another session at 10:30. Have a good day! Shelley Aley: From this discussion, I can think of several things I'd like to investigate about online learning. Thanks! Pavel Zemliansky: OK, great, thank you Donna. It has been fun. Pavel Zemliansky: Hi, Laura Shelley Aley: We have some new people. Hello Laura. I thought we were done, but we have 30 more minutes. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, maybe I can switch to the slide with discussion questions? Shelley Aley: To see our PowerPoint, you need to ask Pavel to change slides. No one seems to know how to give access to the participants. Solomon Isiorho: maybe recap Pavel Zemliansky: OK, Iskandar Hack: I was just told that Pavel can promote you to presenter. Shelley Aley: Pavel, do you want to promote me? Pavel Zemliansky: Our main point is: we value online teaching and we do teach online. But we do not believe that freshmen writers are always ready to take online classes. Shelley Aley: Thanks, Iskandar. Pavel Zemliansky: Iskandar, how do I do that? Pavel Zemliansky: Sorry, done Iskandar Hack: right click her name and it should be on the submenu (that's what I was told) Pavel Zemliansky: Shelley, you are a presented now. Shelley Aley: Something that we've been learning in our discussion is that pragmatics is winning out over ethics. Iskandar Hack: Thanks - I'm new to the interface as well. Shelley Aley: Wow, I'm a presenter. Pavel is very powerful. Thanks. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, according to a Canadian study, 1 in 3 students have admitted to plagiarizing. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, Shelley, I feel like a wizard. Kidding Shelley Aley: Anyone else want a wish fulfilled? Just ask Pavel! Shelley Aley: Isn't technology wonderful? Solomon Isiorho: :) Pavel Zemliansky: Does anyone have anything to say to the discussion questions? Not that we have not been discussing things already... Shelley Aley: More seriously, plagiarism is a big problem, which may be even more of a problem in online environments. Solomon Isiorho: that was discuss by one of hte presenters two days ago Solomon Isiorho: discussed Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, although I am a big believer in structuring assignments in such a way that does not allow students loopholes for plagiarism. Solomon, in science, can students theoretically find ready-made answers in solutions online? Shelley Aley: I was part of a discussion yesterday on plagiarism, too. Solomon Isiorho: sometimes they do in my particular field ..geology Shelley Aley: Don't know if Laura saw our welcome. So, once again, welcome, Laura. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, welcome, Laura Solomon Isiorho: you try to stay ahead of the students Pavel Zemliansky: Solomon, wow, this is pretty sad, it sounds like you are basically competing with students to see who gets to the right solution faster? Shelley Aley: When we see a student's in-class writing (maybe freewriting, maybe writing addressing a reading assignment) we get used to the student's style and can sometimes easily see when he or she is plagiarizing. How do you detect plagiarism? Solomon Isiorho: yep...you have to change your questions or have test banks Solomon Isiorho: this was discussed yesterday or so Shelley Aley: How many students in your classes? Solomon Isiorho: I currently have 50 Shelley Aley: This is another ethical concern--big classes. Solomon Isiorho: I decided not to have more than 25 next time around Shelley Aley: The plagiarism issue seems linked to big, content-centered classes. Shelley Aley: Can you decide that? Solomon Isiorho: I have the choice so long as the school makes enough to cover their cost Pavel Zemliansky: That is a nice situation to be in. Shelley Aley: Our College of Arts and Letters requires some writing-intensive courses. And the class size is limited to 20 students. Maybe you could develop some writing-intensive components to your course. This would help decrease the size of the class and help with the plagiarism problem. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, Shelley, good idea. Solomon Isiorho: I have 4 writing assignments Shelley Aley: The cost-coverage stipulation is nice. Pavel Zemliansky: Seems like a "writing intensive" class already Shelley Aley: With 50 students, you have four writing assignments! Do you do all the responding to that writing? Pavel Zemliansky: I used to teach in a writing program where the cap was 25. It is more difficult than 20, but manageable. as long as you do not have a 4/4 load. Solomon Isiorho: yes but I limit the nmumbe of pages :) Shelley Aley: Good idea. Solomon Isiorho: i have to remain sane you know Shelley Aley: I have great respect for you because you use writing in your class. Too many of our colleagues in other disciplines say, "I don't teach writing!" and then they blame us if the students don't write the way they want. But everyone in the university "teaches" writing when they give writing assignments, whether they admit it or not. Solomon Isiorho: that 's correct Pavel Zemliansky: Solomon, what kinds of writing assignments. briefly, do you give? Just curious. Shelley Aley: And everyone needs to "teach" writing, because it is part of every discipline and everything we do. Solomon Isiorho: Write on three rocks in our geogarden, stating why they chose those particular rocks and any uses Pavel Zemliansky: this is pretty cool. seem to give students opportunity for creative research. I also like the word "geogarden." Solomon Isiorho: we actually have it online too Shelley Aley: Are these, what one person in our field terms, high-risk or low-risk writing assignments? Pavel Zemliansky: can I see the link? Shelley Aley: Yes, send the link. Shelley Aley: Are big points assigned to these writings or are you mainly using writing to enhance learing, without assigning a lot of points Solomon Isiorho: http://www.geosci.ipfw.edu/geogarden.html Solomon Isiorho: It's 20% of their course grade Pavel Zemliansky: Do you do preliminary drafts or conferences? Pavel Zemliansky: I like the site. I think we have something similar to your geogarden here at JMU Solomon Isiorho: can you see the pictures and descriptions? Shelley Aley: Cool! Solomon Isiorho: I can tell students who try to copy what we have there Shelley Aley: Yes, I can see the pictures and descriptions. Pavel Zemliansky: Yes, but I am not seeing the assignment. Is it on this page? Solomon Isiorho: I like to read why they chose a particular rock Solomon Isiorho: No no...it's in WebCT Vista Pavel Zemliansky: do you encourage personal elements in their writing as well as research? Shelley Aley: I didn't understand the one post, "I can tell students who try to copy what we have there" -- what did you mean? Pavel Zemliansky: when they copy from the website, right? Solomon Isiorho: soem students just copy the page and have that as their writing assignment Pavel Zemliansky: not very smart Shelley Aley: Oh no. That's really dumb. Shelley Aley: Do you think that they think you aren't reading their writing assignments? Solomon Isiorho: http://users.ipfw.edu/isiorho/ScheduleUnitTwo.html Solomon Isiorho: yes... Shelley Aley: I once had a student who "tested" me. She wrote a bunch of silly stuff. She was really shocked to find out that I actually read the paper. Pavel Zemliansky: Thanks for the link. Solomon Isiorho: that is where I have the rock assignment and you can se the other assignments from that page Pavel Zemliansky: hmm, testing the teacher? Pavel Zemliansky: OK, this time we are really running out of time. Concluding remarks, anyone? Solomon Isiorho: Thansk for your presentation Iskandar Hack: Solomon, when I was student I turned a paper once - I put everyother page upside down - it came back with an A -- I know it was never read. Some professors don't read for sure Pavel Zemliansky: That is incredible, Iskandar! Solomon Isiorho: what a shame Shelley Aley: The more you let you students know they are writing for a person who cares to read what they write, the better they'll try. Shelley Aley: And maybe they will stop plagiarizing your wonderful web site. Iskandar Hack: I was testing the Prof - like your student, with a different result. Shelley Aley: Yes. Pavel Zemliansky: Great points. OK, thank you everyone for the lively discussion. We are out of time, unfortunately. I really enjoyed looking across the disciplines. Shelley Aley: Thank you for the great discussion, and thank you, too, Pavel. Pavel Zemliansky: Thanks everyone. I am saving the session and logging off. Shelley Aley: Bye Solomon Isiorho: bye Iskandar Hack: I'd like to thank the presenters. Good discussion Iskandar Hack: bye. Pavel Zemliansky: Bye, everybofy.