Event Name - 023--The Many Facets of Politics and Ethics in Designing... (TPL759773)

Gail Rathbun: Oh, I am sorry. We have several different ways of doing things. The last presentation was a presentation and people jumped in as the speaker went along. I thought you might want to point out some things to us in particular.
Naj Shaik: Is this an asynchronous program?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: OK.. I can do that..
JoAnn Carter-Wells: The online MS degree in Instructional Design and Technology is both synchronous and asynchronous and it is a cohort program with participants from around the country.. mainly professional in scope - Bristol Myers Squibb, Kia Motors, Washington Mutual Bank, etc.
Naj Shaik: Is the synchronous session scheduled similar to on-site sessions - one or two hours each week?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: One of the unique features of this program is that we have 2 required orientation points - boot-up camp and a midpoint symposium -which we developed to try and resolve the issues of retentation and persistence and authentication that were in the literature and which arose in many forums on campus as we developed the program.
Gail Rathbun: I think the periodic face to face sessions are critical, and having people move through within a limited time frame.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: The synchronous component is both instructor and curriculum and cohort driven in terms of working on projects or checkpoints for discusion..
Barbara Glaeser: I agree. Not everyone can attend, particularly if they are across the globe, but they usually attend at least one session over the course of the program, even if just graduation.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Absolutely critical  .. We conceptualized this program as a community of learners from the inception and those F2F meetings help not only in retention but also in building the cohort structure and this community learning spirit. They are very intense lasting for an entire day each and we integrate various campus units in these meetings..
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Barbara just joined us and she is a new member of the MSIDT faculty team.. welcome..Another unique factor is that we are an interdisciplinay program housed under the Associate Dean and faculty work in the program leaving their own department for that particular time depending on their expertise with a particular curricular focus in the program..
Naj Shaik: I am from the University of Illinois and we have similar programs - similar in design
Barbara Glaeser: We also try to include them in campus events that cooincide with the meetings to provide a feeling of 'belonging' to an official University.
Barbara Glaeser: Naj: How many meetings do you have, and how long is your program?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj.. do you have orientaiton programs and how has that helped to integrate the curricular experience and also ensure retention? We also found that having these meetings helped to answer the political concern on campus about authenticity.. They also serve for assessment purposes. as a point of reflection where students do a lot of writing and thinking and interact with both other cohort members and the faculty..
Barbara Glaeser: These reflections are very important for our program reviews.
Barbara Glaeser: I should have added both internal and external reviews.
Naj Shaik: We have online orientation for one of the programs and for the other two it is site based
Barbara Glaeser: Thanks.
Worth Weller: Do students feel this is an authentic, 500-600 level university experience?
Barbara Glaeser: Oh yes! the courses are rigorous and we focus on their development as practitioners and as researchers.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj... we have been thinking about moving one of our meetings to online.. has that been just as successful as the f2f? Do you have a cohort program?
Barbara Glaeser: Worth: An interesting aspect of this instruction occurred last summer when I asked the students to step out of the role of student and to think like a leader of online discussions, as they would as an instructor. It was hard for some of them, but necessary!
Solomon Isiorho: computer problem
Naj Shaik: yes we have cohort programs
Naj Shaik: I can email you the URLs of these programs
Naj Shaik: Faye and I have done some reseach on these programs with a focus on retention
JoAnn Carter-Wells: We had an external evaluator assist us with the first cohort and indeed the students reported that the program was much harder than they had anticipated .. with much more work than a regular f2f process...many of these students are already ID in their particular jobs and supported by their employers to get this degree. They have very practical culminating experiences that are projects to correspond to a need in their industry or workplace setting.
Barbara Glaeser: Naj: Can you speak more about the retention issue? What kind of difficulties have you experienced?
Naj Shaik: The retention rate in these programs is above 95% - all of this is due to the program design.  I think your design matches what we have at UIUC
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj.... I would love to share your research with our team members since we looked at the research to date in developing our proram initially and then designed program protocols accordingly. Do you have a community site for regular communication with the students?e a callygbmhsarwe are
Gail Rathbun: What do you do about the perception that the program is much harder than a F2F program? Seems like an ethical issue.
Barbara Glaeser: Thank you, Naj. I agree! The cohort model is really necessary. We have seen so much growth in the learning  communities over time. They learn to trust and support each other.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Sorry.. the keyboard got away from me before I was finished.. in my excitement to respond to you Naj! It does sound as though we have similar program designs.. and a similar retention rate.. We just initiated the 3rd cohort and #2 will graduate in May.
Barbara Glaeser: Gail: I didn't see that in the previous text, but I did not perceive that. I felt that our students were challenged as much as a F2F class, not more or less.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: A week after graduation, the 1st cohort created an alumni association which is now recognized by the university under the Professional Charter structure.. we were so pleased that they wanted to continue this support and networking beyond the degree experience with us.
Naj Shaik: In fact one of the programs started with 30 students and now it has 200 enrollments from US and international.  These programs are administered by departments and managed very well
JoAnn Carter-Wells: I think that the challenge issue could also reflect that the students don't realize the time factor involved.. they are attracted to the independent nature of the program but also have to truly be self-directed learners and comfortable with this type of learning environment.. these are points that we stress during the program applicaiton process and required interview...
Naj Shaik: The quality is comparable to the conventional programs - but the students rated these programs very high - that shows the involvement of the program staff.  I will contact you later with the program details
Karen Ivers: Hello, sorry for my delay.
Naj Shaik: I am interested in some of the political hurdles you had to jump - can you share some of the challenges and your experiences
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj... we have had many international applicants but raised our TOEFL score so that has been a problem in acceptance.. and.. also the technology access.. We were asked to develop a program in Vietnam for the higher education faculty under a US sponsored program..but knew that we needed to have a site-based liaision there..s dHan
Barbara Glaeser: Gail: I am still thinking about your question. If we really think about it, the experience for the online students is more difficult in the fact that they can't hang out in our hallways and have access to us during off-hours. In addition, from our research we have found that at times a student is reluctant to approach a professor with feelings of being 'lost' or haivng difficulty. Over time, however, as they get to know cohort-mates and the faculty, this begins to be less of an issue.
Gail Rathbun: Are there any ethical or political issues involved in being a part of a cmpany cohort? Competition for grades? Does being in this demanding program create stress within the company?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Welcome Karen.. She is also a founding member of the MSIDT Team and has developed some of the major courses and is also the Chair of the Program Council, an interdiscplinary governing body.
Karen Ivers: My experience with students is that they are very cooperative, not competitive.
Clem Barnett: [ I've just joined (it's early morning here) and I had to come into campus to make the connection. I'll watch and catch up to the discussion.]
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Gail.. we have students from a variety of companies in each cohort and there aren't two from any one company in the same cohort.. In fact, just the opposite, there seems to be a mentoring process whereby a student from the same company in an earlier cohort will mentor a new student in the MSIDT program..it has been very productive in that way.
Barbara Glaeser: Gail: Those are interesting questions! First, I have never felt that there is competition for grades. Many of the experiences are designed for students to work in groups, so there is a lot of cooperation and a team effort. We can easily tell who is not putting in the work, however, because it shows up on the Discussion Boards where planning takes place.
Barbara Glaeser: Gail: JoAnn answered your second question. Students share how they are utilizing what they are learning with their companies, so I can only assume the effects are positive.
Naj Shaik: What type of assisgnment students have to complete for the course?  Are they individual, team - what percentage and who organizes the teams?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: We have been working on the implementation of an online certificate in instructional design and technology linked to the MS degree - 9 units and 15 units - which was approved by our Academic Senate and President.. Our goal there is to target a niche market in the delivery - such as with Kia Motors - and that might change the dynamics a bit.. such as Gail mentioned.. but we won't know that for another year or so...as the program will be implemented in the spring.. hopefully..
Barbara Glaeser: I can only speak for the course I teach, but students have to do many types of assignments: readings,  and refelcting on readings with colleagues (for which they are individually graded on content), group presentations, individual research in which they provide literature reviews and resources.
Karen Ivers: JoAnn may address this, but assignments throughout the program are based upon program strands.  Some assignments are individual, others are in teams.  In some courses, students self select their teams; inothers, students may be randomly assigned.  Students complete assignments realtive to the courses they are taking -- papers, prototypes, etc.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj.. we have over 23 different types of assessment throughout the program linked to 7 key strands.. which I put in the Powerpoint....and thus a variety of experiences and expectations depending on the course goals...Our goal was to provide a comprehensive learning experience with expectations for quality work that would lay the groundwork for their final culminating project -an instructional design project with multimedia components that linked to their overall professional goal. In addition, their project prospectus is reviewed by our IRB prior to inception of that final term segment of work..
Chris Huang: I am sorry I have missed the begining part, but how many years now have you been implementing the online MSIDT program in Cal State Fullerton?
Naj Shaik: thanks JoAnn
Karen Ivers: This is our third year -- third cohort.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Welcome Chris.. We started our design of this program in June, 2001 and were accredited by WASC in June, 2002 and started our first cohort in August, 2002.. Thus we are in the 3rd year of the program having just worked with our 3rd cohort...
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj.. I am most interested in any political problems that you had on your campus in developing an international student base.. or.. was it a n institurional mandate in some way?
Chris Huang: I see that students even want to get together after their program ends, but are they able to incorporate what they have learned into their working environment?
Naj Shaik: The university encouragd the departments to develop online programs with initial funding for first year
Karen Ivers: Chris -- absolutely. Their final projects are designed to be used in their working environment.
Naj Shaik: I am not aware of any political issues the depts had to face - I need to discuss this the department coordinators to get a feel of this issue
Clem Barnett: You mention a "commitment to a team working environment" in your paper.  I'm guessing you (the course team) are all dispersed, rather than sharing common physical space:  how did you work to achieve this commitment?
Worth Weller: We are fortunate at IPFW that we have a vice-chancelor very dedicated to the effective use of technology, particularly in distance learning, but she also is very supportive of it too in f2f classes, so the political climate here, at least on some levels, is not too bad.
Barbara Glaeser: Chris: From the comments they make during discussions, yes, they begin to use their skills right away! For example, I taught the course on instructional methods for teaching adults. During a discussion, a student remarked how he had done a training for autopmobile workers recently, and had incorporated what he had learned from the previous chapter for that session. Great feedback!
JoAnn Carter-Wells: That is also how we began.. in terms of funding support. We also received a Chancellor's OFfice directive approving the assessment of additional fees for online participation.. do you have that as well?? That was another political issue that I forgot to mention.. since we had to go before Student Fee committees on campus for any type of additional fee assessments.
Worth Weller: ah, don't you love that kind of feedback Barbara
Chris Huang: I heard you are going to work with KIA, may I ask how your program coordinator gain the account and what hurdle will they face to achieve the company's interest in investing in their employees?
Barbara Glaeser: Yes! Interesting that you mention KIA because that is where the student I spoke of is employed.
Worth Weller: At IPFW, Internet credit hours cost the student more than f2f hours, JoAnn
Naj Shaik: The online degree programs have separate fee structure and it different from the  campus programs.  I don't know how this works.  Not my research area
Gail Rathbun: Are the extra fees solely related to technology, worth?
Naj Shaik: i can get the info for you later - if you need
Karen Ivers: Clem -- we are an interdisciplinary group, coming together for a common purpose to support the MSIDT program.  We are all a part of CSUF, but come from different departments.  We came together because we all had a common interest and background in Instructional Design and technology.
Iskandar Hack: Gail, I believe part of the extra costs go to Continuing Studies
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Chris.. one of the students in our 1st cohort worked at Kia Motors and so I went there and met with the Education director at Kia University along with one of our MSIDT faculty team to find out about their needs independent of an MS degree. Our initial market analysis found that many employers didn't necessarily feel that all of their employees needed an MS but they did need specialized skill training.. and that is what prompted us to think of a certificate that linked to part of the MS degree curriculum and focus.. at least at the introductory course level..
Rita Hawkins: Does a portion of the extra cost go to the professor teaching online?
Worth Weller: Boy, Gail, good question - I don't really know the rationale or where the money goes, but i know it is an issue for some students
Iskandar Hack: Rita,there is a small amount passed on to the Professor.
Rita Hawkins: Same here
Gail Rathbun: I amthinking that if it is an arbitrary fee, it sort of devalues face to face work, doesn't it?
Worth Weller: yes Rita - I get a fairly handsomne bonus for teaching Internet courses, over my f2f pay
JoAnn Carter-Wells: The additional costs are for program maintenance and program level needs.. the instructors are paid the same for either online or f2f.. although the issue of equivalence is a problem.. should 3 units in online be given more weight in the teaching load, etc.?
Naj Shaik: my personal opinion - if the programs are similar then the fee structure should be identical
Gail Rathbun: Worth, how do you feel about that?How should I feel about that as an excellent F2F instructor?
Chris Huang: How do you structure your program (curriculum) to fit the corporate setting such as KIA automotive?
Worth Weller: Good point Gail - it would be a good thing to understand the rational and to be albe to "ethically" explain it
Iskandar Hack: A better question is how do the students feel, esp when they have no choice to take online course and would prefer a f2f course?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: If the course is offered during the summer, thus under our summer session fee structure, there might be an increase in pay from the regular year support.. but.. the course is part of the regular load during the AY...
Gail Rathbun: I would really like administrators to grapple with Iskandar's question.
Rita Hawkins: Gail, I spend more time teaching x number of students online than the equivalent students F2F.  However, in response to Iskandar, my students have a choice, and my online fill first, despite greater cost.
Gail Rathbun: If technology could be truly transparent, then we would need no compensating monetary factor.
Barbara Glaeser: I agree only to a point. Many sign up for online thinking it is easier, and are surprised that it is not! Some then quit and ask for the F2F class.
Gail Rathbun: Are students willing to pay higher cost because they think that the online course will be easier?
Gail Rathbun: I think BG agrees
Worth Weller: Well, Hack, students have contgrary feelings about taking Internet classes - mine always fill up instantly - whereas by f2f classes enrollment lingers, yet they have the exact same number of papers, due dates, etc.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Chris.. at this point, we have not yet implemented the online certificate program with Kia Motors.. and it may be that as we move forward it may indeed become a site-based program.. since it is within our region...They also wanted us to work with the entire automotive consortium in the LA area since there are particular curricular needs there.. however.. all of this is separate from the online MS degree program.. just an offshoot of our work to date..
Iskandar Hack: In many cases they sign up for on line because of scheduling problems in our department.
Worth Weller: go figure
Rita Hawkins: My students have responded to that question about why take online with such statements as "I have 18 hours and I cannot fit this class in." [F2F)
Chris Huang: I am interested in this because I used to design KIA's exhibit for the North American International Autoshow.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: An online course is also very powerful for professional students and also with commuting issues in a large regional environment.. We are concerned about the learner match though..
Barbara Glaeser: The online option is popular with students who live far from the main campus and those who work during the day and need the flexibility.
Gail Rathbun: So we are back at program level decisions and student advising that permits students to do 18 hours
Worth Weller: Barbara has a good point - I have somewhat of a rention problem in my online classes, particularly the 200 level, because students may be signing up without looking at the syllabus first (which is online and available early) and then are startled that I have weekly due dates!
Naj Shaik: I enjoyed the discussion - had to go to a meeting (not my choice) - will catch you later.  :<
Rita Hawkins: Gail, yes.  overload
Barbara Glaeser: Worth: Yes, asynchronous does not apply to due dates!
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Chris.. how fascinating.. it may be that you have worked with some of the students in our MS degree program in some way.. the ones who are based in Irvine!
Gail Rathbun: To solve the ethical problem, we should be doing more up front to help students screen themselves and do more proactive counseling
Worth Weller: to me, on-line classes are really geared to non-tradtional students, certainly not for fifth-year high school students.
Iskandar Hack: I had an interesting situation last year. I offered a course online and f2f - same class. At the beginning most students were content to do it online. Slowly as the semester moved on they started showing up in the class room.
Chris Huang: I used to live in Anaheim Hills before I moved to Michigan, and now in Kent State U in Ohio.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Naj.. can you please send us the URLs for your program since it seems that we have had similar political issues and needs..
Worth Weller: that is indeed interesting Hack
Gail Rathbun: You have to have excellent reading skills to study online
Gail Rathbun: You have to be able to move quickly through material
Gail Rathbun: You have to be able to understand visual cues easily and accurately
Worth Weller: yes Gail - goes to effective advising, as well as "discliamers" on OASIS
Worth Weller: good time-management skills too
Rita Hawkins: You have to be at least somewhat self-disciplined . . . many are not.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Gail... we do indeed agree about the counseling aspect and have designed some questions on our intake interview to try and help applicants assess their own fit with the program...
Gail Rathbun: And if you can't, you will not succeed at online. They playing field is not level,
Gail Rathbun: even less level than in F2F
Worth Weller: and yes, way to much to read in an online class, just to get started!
Iskandar Hack: I still offer the course f2f, but place all of the PPT online as well as the assignments. Only one or two students rely on them, the rest show up like clockwork.
Barbara Glaeser: To all: Yes, I agree! However, we need to keep an open mind about what technology may provide in the coming years. I would love to do remote, synchronous teaching, as we do with video-conferencing. Most students do not have computers capable of handling that at present.
Clem Barnett: We need to acknowledge students are bring new experiences into higher education.  Fifth year high school students....I use online with year 5 primary students:  first year UG students are becoming more accepting
Worth Weller: I'm re-thinking my whole approach now to how I present information onlinek particularly after some of these DECCO meetings and some conversations with you CELT people
Chris Huang: Do you ever worked with governmental contract programs? Will they be much different in working with say corporations?
JoAnn Carter-Wells: That is one reason why we put a very high TOEFL score as a program requirement.. due to the reading and often text dense nature of the work...
Iskandar Hack: Hate to be a sour puss, but we have about 4 minutes in this room.
Worth Weller: good point Clem - the oung people are pretty adept at this, it's just the time-management issues, motivation
Iskandar Hack: JoAnn - could you save the chat log and email it to tohe@ipfw.edu
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Chris.. not so far.. how would you expect that to be different in scope.. probably internal politics might dictate involvement and curricular focus???...
Gail Rathbun: Please remember to complete the evaluation that will pop up when you leave. Also don't forget the Lobby where you can network. You can access i through the Information Center
JoAnn Carter-Wells: Yes I can.. I also tried to check the Record icon when I began but don't know if I was successful???
Barbara Glaeser: On the issue of 'necessary requirements' I studies the experiences of students with disabilities online. On one hand, a student reported that her language difference (non-native speaker of English) disappeared online. Yet others with learning difficulties could NOT follow the type of text we are expereiencing right now. I was not able to do any more virtual chats with that class because this technology was not accessible to that student.
Iskandar Hack: T
Iskandar Hack: The chat log is a backup
Iskandar Hack: just in case :)
Gail Rathbun: JoAnn you seem to be recording, but that is for the powerpooint. Just save the chat log using the File menu in the chat window.
Worth Weller: Yes - I've had studnets tell me the take classes online because they are overwieght, or have skin disorders, and the like. I admire them.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: OK.. I understand...and use the session number as well??
Iskandar Hack: yes
Chris Huang: I think content wise may be designed based on different learner characteristics.
Iskandar Hack: your right Gail - the record doesn't keep the chat log.
Worth Weller: bye everyone - this was "fun."
Barbara Glaeser: Worth-I never thought of those issues as being important to students, but it has shown to be true. The introvert can be him or herself online.
Clem Barnett: Is this bye then? Thanks for the chats. Bye
Worth Weller: exactly, Barbara
Rita Hawkins: so long
Barbara Glaeser: I truly enjoyed reading your comments. thank you for a great session!
Iskandar Hack: Good job JoAnn, Barbara and Karen.
Chris Huang: Thanks for the enlighting conversation.
JoAnn Carter-Wells: We have been pleased to be part of this involvement and learned some additional areas to include in our future work and program discussion.. Thanks to everyone...
Gail Rathbun: Thanks so much to everyone!
Iskandar Hack: Bye - everyone