Event Name - 015--The Upper Limit... (PLW533078) Iskandar Hack: Hello Joy, just dropped in to make sure you got started okay. I'll be comming back around 6:25 Joy Colwell: nice to see you here Iskandar Hack: I'm interested in seeing out busy these late sessions are. Joy Colwell: Hi everyone--I show we have a couple of minutes yet before we officially start Joy Colwell: Thanks to everyone who has dropped in tonight--have you had a chance to look at any of the material? If not, I can go through it. Cree Stout: I have not had time to look at the files. Cree Stout: Do you have a presentation or do I need to print the material? Joy Colwell: I'll be happy to run through the presentation. Can I ask each person to introduce him/herself and let me know what experience you have with online classes? Joy Colwell: I have a presentation. gregg elkins: I did get to read your paper Cree Stout: I am the department manager for a small EET (2 year program). two thirds of our program is either on line or in hybrid format. gregg elkins: Im an associate professor at Southern Illinoins University, carbondale. I've been teaching online for about 6 or 7 years, as well as f2f. gregg elkins: We have an online IST degree program that is about 3 years old. Joy Colwell: I have been teaching online for about 5 years. I have three different courses online. I also teach hybrid as well as f2f. gregg elkins: Information Systems Technologies Joy Colwell: Do you have guidelines for class sizes in your online classes? Albert Ingram: Hi. I'm an Associate Prof of Instructional Technology. Interested in online learning for a while now. Cree Stout: no to the class sizes Joy Colwell: Hi Albert--jump in with info anytime-- gregg elkins: After a couple of years, the faculty set a 12 student limit, but it has not been adhered to. Joy Colwell: Wow--are these undergraduate courses? gregg elkins: Mine are. Albert Ingram: We didn't make any changes to class size when we moved courses online. Our grad classes top out at 20 or 25 regardless. gregg elkins: Do you have grad assts to help? Cree Stout: Some of our economics and pstychology classes (on-line) can run from 30 to 50 students Albert Ingram: I've recently talked to some people who think that you can't get good asynchronous discussion going until you get 30 or 40 or more people, though. Joy Colwell: My online classes are at 20 now, but that's not going to last. The limits will be raised soon, we just don't know how much. Albert Ingram: No grad assts here, that's for sure! Joy Colwell: No grad assts for me either--and 30-40 people posting is a lot of posts to monitor. gregg elkins: I don't see how you can handle so many students when you have labor intestive courses such as programming. Cree Stout: our administration thinks we are so good we can do anything including teaching high number of students with no help!! Albert Ingram: i don't either, but that's what I'm told. Albert Ingram: I think all thse administrators probably talk to one another. Solomon Isiorho: Iam an assoc prof and have been teaching online clas for more than four years gregg elkins: Many of our faculty who put up with higher numbers at lower pay, put up with it to get the online program going, but are not bailing out on teaching online. there is no insentive to do so when you work twice as hard for half the pay. Joy Colwell: I think administrators should teach one online class for the experience. It sounds like everyone has the same issues at some level or another. I'll just run through my slides Albert Ingram: Good idea, Joy. gregg elkins: NOW bailing out, not "not". ;) gregg elkins: Thanks Joy Joy Colwell: If you have questions or comments as we go along, just jump in. Cree Stout: It seems as if all administrators have gone to the same school! Ours think online courses are easier than f2f. Joy Colwell: I looked at pedagogical issues as well as faculty workload for this paper. Solomon Isiorho: you don't expend any energy Joy Colwell: we've already touched on this topic--I know that many administrators think that online is easier because you can do it anywhere--when actually you end up doing it everywhere all the time. Solomon Isiorho: liek 7/24 Solomon Isiorho: like 7/24 Joy Colwell: I have heard from some instructors that they have as many as 100 in some of their online courses--but most of them have lots of help. Solomon Isiorho: How do the 'helps' help? Joy Colwell: The instructors have instructional designers to help build the courses and grad assts to help manage them. Solomon Isiorho: my problem is with grading assignments Joy Colwell: One prof I talked to had 97 students, but he had a full time ID person and at least 2 grad assts plus his time to manage the course. gregg elkins: If all an instructor is doing is throwing up their power points from f2f classes and having students take t/f test in WebCT, that is a totally different ballgame. Cree Stout: Unfortunately, our instructional designers know nothing about the material and wind up mai\king it harder for us Cree Stout: I typically have chat rooms, but most students do not take advantage of it Joy Colwell: Grading is really time consuming if you are really doing it with feedback--that is one of the quality issues that I think matters in class size. So much feedback and grading Solomon Isiorho: and I am not comfortable giving that to an assistant Cree Stout: Solomon: ditto Joy Colwell: I quit using chat rooms pretty much, because everyone always uses email instead. gregg elkins: I have students this semester that were surprised when I gave detail feedback, they hadn't had an instructor do that before. Solomon Isiorho: I use discussion board Joy Colwell: I have students who are surprised that an instructor sends them email at all--they are used to very little contact! gregg elkins: I use the discussion board all the time too. Solomon Isiorho: I try to repsond to every email/report within 24 hours Joy Colwell: I prefer the discussion boards too--anything synchronous just doesn't seem to work out as well. Cree Stout: Most of us using DE require regular correspondance from students via chat, email, or discussion Joy Colwell: I tell my students that on weekends I reserve the right to wait till Monday for nonurgent matters, otherwise it's about 24 hours. gregg elkins: So, if they do not receive feedback and no e-mail, they are not taking a class, but reading and filling in the blanks. Solomon Isiorho: just a handful show up during the synchronous sessions Solomon Isiorho: Me too, weekend starts Friday evening for me. gregg elkins: weekends are my busiest time. That is when they do their work and may easily get "stuck" and need assistance to move on. Joy Colwell: the two big surveys I looked at pretty much came up with the same info we were discussing--lots of extra work, no extra pay Solomon Isiorho: head counts :( Joy Colwell: I just do emergency stuff on weekends, even though I check my email pretty much 7xweek Joy Colwell: at our school, there isn't a standard --it's set by the different departments and schools on class size Solomon Isiorho: I chose 25 but would allow 30 at a time Cree Stout: I also do web enhanced for my f2f students. That way if I have to be out, I can give them their assignments as well as post important stuff on the web. Joy Colwell: Most of the pedagogical info I looked at came up with a good group size of 15-20 for a balance of interconnectedness and activity Cree Stout: That also chews up time--again no extra pay or pat on the back!! It's expected. Joy Colwell: Too large a group can be overwhelming for students, but of course instructors can always subdivide their classes into smaller groups Albert Ingram: Where did you look for this info, Joy? Joy Colwell: I have been interested in DE for a while, so I looked at some sources that look into this Solomon Isiorho: Do students do better in smaller classes? Joy Colwell: I knew that groups like NEA and AAUP have also been interested in this--and the pedagogical stuff is becoming more available Joy Colwell: I don't know if there is research to back this up, but I would say yes--it probably depends a lot on how the class is structured though Solomon Isiorho: I may have to do some analysis of my data Joy Colwell: Educators have looked at the level of interaction in a course, and the small group size seems to work best with the level of communication required for online Solomon Isiorho: any references? Joy Colwell: Of course, this assumes that the instructor is doing a lot of communication with students Joy Colwell: Check Palloff& Pratt, they write a lot in this area. Check also the "learning communities" info Joy Colwell: There are some references at the end of my paper Solomon Isiorho: thanks Joy Colwell: The authors out there who write on DE, and these are not necessarily research based opinions, have a range of class sizes, but mostly they are on the low end. gregg elkins: I have raw data to see if there is any relation between grade and discussion board participation level. Just need time to put it together and write it up. Anyone looking to help and coauthor? Albert Ingram: How many classes do you have data for, Gregg? Joy Colwell: Most of these authors are online instructors with practical experience, and a lot of them are looking at the communication demands of the class. Solomon Isiorho: I will be interested as I have some of my data too. gregg elkins: nine classes over 3 years. I believe. gregg elkins: Same course, two section a semester for most semesters. Albert Ingram: Perhaps the data could be pooled. Or we could gather the same data over the next few semesters at several different institutions. Solomon Isiorho: sounds good to me Joy Colwell: Sounds intriguing gregg elkins: That would be an excellent idea. Holds much more weight than one institution. Albert Ingram: We could create a virtual research team here. Joy Colwell: The studies confirm what most of us already know--de takes more time for prep and more time for teaching Solomon Isiorho: :) Albert Ingram: Now Karen Swan here at Kent State thinks she has data showing it takes less teaching time, so it might depend on course, structure, etc. Joy Colwell: I know I thought the learning curve was steep at first, but really it hasn't gotten any better since the technological demands seem to change regularly Solomon Isiorho: Joy, will you be willing to coordinate this group? Joy Colwell: Does her data talk about prep time-- Albert Ingram: That's true, Joy... the tech keeps changing. Joy Colwell: Sure--everyone send me an email to colwell@calumet.purdue.edu gregg elkins: How does she define "teaching time"? Albert Ingram: She says that prep time is more but teaching time less. But this is just in informal conversations. Solomon Isiorho: does she interact with her students on a regular basis? Albert Ingram: Good question, Gregg. Joy Colwell: I personally think the time is at least as much or more, more more Albert Ingram: Yes, Solomon, on a discussion board. Solomon Isiorho: more time for me Albert Ingram: So, clearly we should try tracking some of these things in a large scale way. Joy Colwell: the NEA and AFT data are surveys of faculty Joy Colwell: but not really large scale surveys gregg elkins: I certainly do not spend as much synchronous time. No standing there lecturing, but the e-mails, boards,...jeez. ;) Joy Colwell: grading and email take lots of time, as well as creating things in a format appropriate for online. Cree Stout: Does anyone do any f2f reviews for tests? Albert Ingram: I like the idea of getting away from surveys and trying to track teaching time more directly . Perhaps not for a full semester but for a while anyway. Joy Colwell: I haven't--I have some pretty distant DE students Solomon Isiorho: nope gregg elkins: My students are very far as well. I'm thinking of doing remote desktop for some of my web development students who are having difficulties. Joy Colwell: I tracked my teaching time for one semester when I first did this--it was kind of depressing because the numbers were so high, but I thought that part of it was the learning curve. Unfortunately, it wasn't really all that far off on time even without the learning curve Joy Colwell: One issue profs do face is the pressure to increase enrollments, not just in DE classes but in all classes gregg elkins: How does raiseing enrolment boost efficiency? This is too bizarre. ;) Albert Ingram: That's interesting, Joy. Solomon Isiorho: Head counts Albert Ingram: Productivity = number of students per instructor! Joy Colwell: Some administrators track a faculty-student ratio to compute efficiency, Joy Colwell: some track credit hours per faculty gregg elkins: Oh, so its' efficient for the admins, but not for the profs or students? ;) Solomon Isiorho: students...and more students Cree Stout: It all boils dpwn to howm much the state will give us! Joy Colwell: Someone pays somewhere for the efficiency, and usually faculty are at the pointed end gregg elkins: And that in turn causes the student to pay in lack of quality education. Joy Colwell: some colleges thought the DE would be a profit center of some sort--no brick and mortar expenses Albert Ingram: Yes, Joy. Anyone familiar with Weigel's book "Deep Learning for a Digital Age?" Cree Stout: We have found that DE is reducing our night enrollment Joy Colwell: that's pretty much the point I came too--something has to give in the quest for ever larger enrollments, and one place for give is in quality--less contact, less interaction gregg elkins: One bone of contention we have is that our online degree program is showing a profit, but at the expense of lower pay per class for profs. Joy Colwell: Our scheduling has been affected by online enrollments as well, we used to offer more non-traditional scheduling such as weekends, but not anymore. gregg elkins: Which then begs the questions, are admins and possible students not concerned with learning/education, but with degrees? Solomon Isiorho: one presenter earlier showed it more costly using fulltime faculty over using 'cheap labor...grad students Joy Colwell: the people teaching classes seem to recognize that something extra should be given for teaching online classes because of the additional workload Cree Stout: Hey, one of my students told me point blank that all he wanted was the degree. I politely told him not to waste any more time! Solomon Isiorho: I teach in a public school and the number of students is VERY important Solomon Isiorho: Retention is another thing Joy Colwell: Again, I think that using "other labor" could be a form of quality compromise--it just depends. If students think they are getting the benefit of named faculty, and never get any contact at all with that person, that's a problem. Joy Colwell: I was really not surpised to find that most faculty don't get additional compensation or benefits for teaching online courses. It seems that most of the people do it for their own professional development or for the good of their programs. Solomon Isiorho: promotion and tenure :) Cree Stout: Solomon: hah! Joy Colwell: For some, DE is still suspect in the P and T process, sadly Albert Ingram: Do we know of any institutions where distance teaching is an important part of P&T? Joy Colwell: I can't think of one off the top of my head. Solomon Isiorho: My school is now considering it Cree Stout: We have one instructor who was adamantly opposed to DE until he taught it. Now he would rather do that than f2f. Albert Ingram: Me ,neither. That's why I asked. We do talk about the importance of innovation in teaching, but I'm not convinced it has a real effect. Joy Colwell: One of the biggest faculty fears in the AFT survey was that profs would end up doing more work for the same pay Joy Colwell: I usually feel like I have to convince people that it really is teaching Solomon Isiorho: It's one of the elements of teaching excellence Joy Colwell: those who aren't familiar with it don't seem to have as much respect for it, although I think that attitude is changing Solomon Isiorho: in one school...not widely accepted though Cree Stout: Have any of you gone through a SACS visit? Joy Colwell: not me Solomon Isiorho: What is SACS? Albert Ingram: ? Cree Stout: SACS is the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools--an accrediting agency. I was curious about their take on class size and DE. gregg elkins: I thought the same pay was interesting since we are paid less for teaching online courses and they can only be taught off-load. Joy Colwell: Our DE courses are just considered part of our regular workloadwe already talked about the info on this slide-- Cree Stout: We get paid the same for DE and f2f and DE is considered to be part of our load. Solomon Isiorho: i decided to teach online as an overload Albert Ingram: Ours are treated as part of load. gregg elkins: that would be great if it were part of regular teaching. Cree Stout: We don't have such a thing as overload Cree Stout: We may carry 32 credit hours, but that is not considered overload. Solomon Isiorho: my online course is offered through our continuing education studies Cree Stout: in that case, we would be paid for overload gregg elkins: ours is also throught continuing education Joy Colwell: We used to have overloads, but not anymore. My co-author and I put together some recommendations--but they are definitely our preferences based on workload and some pedagogical considerations, not necessarily completely research based Solomon Isiorho: 32 credit hours in a semester? Cree Stout: I have done it. Did not like it. Students suffered. I suffered. Won't do it again. gregg elkins: how many classes is 32 hours? Cree Stout: Considering that most of our courses are 4 semester hours each--you are looking at 6 to 7. most were small classes, but some were off campus as well Joy Colwell: We teach 4 courses a semester, unless one is a lab class. Lab classes may be 3 classes a semester. Joy Colwell: I am currently teaching 3 online classes and one hybrid class for the semester. Joy Colwell: Has anyone taught grad classes online? Solomon Isiorho: we teach 3 courses with research or four courses per semester Cree Stout: Our state FTE is based on 15 credit hours, but our load is based on contact hours of 18 minimum. Most of us in ET carry 24 to 28 contact hours gregg elkins: We have 3 a semester since research and service are also required. I am teaching 2 additional onlinen courses this semester. Last time I'll do two additional. Solomon Isiorho: we do not have grad students in my department Albert Ingram: I teach grad course almost exclusvely. Albert Ingram: We have now instituted an "electronic M Ed. " degree. Joy Colwell: Do your grad courses differ in size? Solomon Isiorho: however, i teach two course grad students from other departments take gregg elkins: Cree, just saw you won the President's Award for Instructional Excellence last May. Congrats. Cree Stout: thanks Albert Ingram: Our grad courses have about 8 to 25 students. Solomon Isiorho: congratulations Cree Albert Ingram: Congrats! Joy Colwell: Is that much different than undergrad? (ps congrats from me too) Cree Stout: I am still trying to figure out how I did it!! but thanks to all of you Albert Ingram: I think the students are a bit more focussed, but I haven't taught masses of undergrads for a while. Joy Colwell: What do you think about additional comp for online courses, or course reduction, etc.? Cree Stout: I find that our second year students do much better in DE than first year. I would assume that grad students would do bette than undergrad. Albert Ingram: It has literally never arisen here, at least within my hearing. We just assume that it is part of our load. Solomon Isiorho: maybe a token from the admistrators? Albert Ingram: We did have some money at one point to compensate people for developing online courses, but not for teaching them. Joy Colwell: I have developed 3 online courses, and never gotten release time or any other break or compensation Cree Stout: From time to time, we can get release time to develop a course. But after it is developed, it becomes part of our load Solomon Isiorho: Cree, there is no differnet between the two groups according ot my data gregg elkins: I think there has to be some type of incentive for teachers if the online endeavor is really going to succeed at our uni. gregg elkins: Cree, Does it replace a f2f class? Solomon Isiorho: my fingers can't type :) Cree Stout: no Joy Colwell: I find it hard to believe that profs would continue to do this if it really creates more work for the same pay Joy Colwell: although here I am, still doing it gregg elkins: I have a feeling burn out will occur if there is no release time or insentive. Solomon Isiorho: you have a job Cree Stout: Haven't you all figured out that we do this for "love"? gregg elkins: One of the answers to your questions, Joy, is that I love to teach online. I love to teach, and I get some very good students online. gregg elkins: lol, yep Solomon Isiorho: :) Joy Colwell: I thought DE was very odd at first, and I really missed the classroom. I have adjusted though, and now I like both, but for different reasons. Cree Stout: It really pays off when a student comes by and says thanks or "I love you" gregg elkins: I think that that is what also brings us to this conference and this room. Some can simply throw something out there and not care. we must care. Solomon Isiorho: yep Joy Colwell: I get the same students in both DE and f2f classes over time. Cree Stout: so do I --different courses Joy Colwell: I think caring is how we get into the box on "efficiency". I think others count on us to care. Joy Colwell: I could use some help with course creation though--I think the tools are about to leave me behind technologically. Joy Colwell: Can I ask you what course management systems you all are using? gregg elkins: I incorporate some type of online work in my f2f classes as well. I'm always amazed at how many students do not communicate or ask questions in the f2f classroom, but then e-mail me with well thought out comments or questions. It gives those "fearful" students a mode that they certainly need. Solomon Isiorho: WebCT Vista for me Albert Ingram: WebCT: Vista... but I do most of my stuff on my own websites. Naj Shaik: at my campus (university of illinois) instructors get help to put the course online and student help during the online synchronous course sessions as well as tech help desk Cree Stout: WebCT Joy Colwell: We have Blackboard, but are moving to Vista. gregg elkins: WEbCT. though I seldom use their creation tools, I write it myself. Naj Shaik: Vista gregg elkins: I do use WebCT's bulletin board and mail system though. Solomon Isiorho: I use it for tests and recording grades Joy Colwell: The tools are getting so advanced on simulations and course content that it's hard to keep absolutely current Solomon Isiorho: we had some tough time with vista last semester Joy Colwell: us too Solomon Isiorho: but they seemto be removing some of hte bugs Joy Colwell: teaching with technology! :) Solomon Isiorho: i gues you can still read my post despite the spellings Joy Colwell: we don't care about spellings--I'm just glad to hear from you gregg elkins: brb Joy Colwell: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to add or raise as an issue? I know we have a little time left. Solomon Isiorho: Is it okay to write our email here? Albert Ingram: I have to leave a little early.... to go to an online class! Interesting discussion, Joy, thanks. And I would be interested in pursuing some of these issues. Iskandar Hack: yes - Solomon, these sessions are closed to participants Naj Shaik: interesting discussion - thanks Joy Colwell: Just out of curiosity--how does everyone like the Centra interface? Have you used it before?--Please put you email in if you like. Albert Ingram: It seems to be working pretty well this year. Albert Ingram: BTW, I'm at aingram@kent.edu Solomon Isiorho: this is my first time with centra Solomon Isiorho: isiorho@ipfw.edu Cree Stout: I know most will disagree with me, but I really like the text chat better than the voice. If I miss something, I can read it later. Solomon Isiorho: :) Joy Colwell: I like it. I'd be interested in trying the voice feature. Joy Colwell: my email again is colwell@calumet.purdue.edu Solomon Isiorho: Iskandar, thanks...i can save the chat for later use :) Solomon Isiorho: did we agree that Joy should coordinate the proposed work/research/paper? Joy Colwell: Thanks to all of you for all your insightful comments and input! I really appreciate it. Joy Colwell: I don't know about co-ordinating forever, but I'll certainly get the ball rolling! Cree Stout: Thank you! I have enjoyed the session. I wish you luck. gregg elkins: I'm not really thrilled with Centra. I wish I could change the slides. ;) and get info on partipants, see a profile of some sort. Joy Colwell: I have Solomon and Albert who are interested in the research project--if anyone else is interested please email me Solomon Isiorho: thanks Joy gregg elkins: I have enjoyed this session. Good things to think about.. I'm interested in collaborating on research. gregg @siu.edu Solomon Isiorho: we email off chat Joy Colwell: great gregg elkins: Thanks Joy, it was a great session and I enjoyed your paper as well. Good Job! Joy Colwell: thank you Joy Colwell: Iskandar--would you like me to stick around until the end? Solomon Isiorho: Good night (evening for some) Iskandar Hack: No, but please save the chat log and send it to me. gregg elkins: I'm going to have to run too. Thanks again. Night. Joy Colwell: Should I stop recording before I save the file? Iskandar Hack: yes, and then save the file before you close the chat window. Iskandar Hack: I can 't save it since I wasn't in the whole time Joy Colwell: thanks for all your help--I hope I haven't bugged you with too much email this week! Joy Colwell: thanks again--I'll send you the file. Iskandar Hack: are you still here Joy Colwell: I Joy Colwell: yes Joy Colwell: I just sent you an email I can't save the file Joy Colwell: the only options I get under file are Print and exit Iskandar Hack: What happens if you hit File on this window? Joy Colwell: I get save as--Yay Iskandar Hack: that's the one. Joy Colwell: I was looking at the main file button--sorry Joy Colwell: thanks again for all your help! Iskandar Hack: it's okay - that's why stick around Iskandar Hack: your welcome. Iskandar Hack: Thanks it was a lively session - I enjoyed it.