Event Name - 011--Ethical Grading-Unleashing the Power ... (MLL411312) Worth Weller: HI - we are probably a little early Worth Weller: Hi Bernard, high iskandar Worth Weller: you'll note right off the bat I'm a very messy typist Worth Weller: Can you all see my messages? Worth Weller: why am I not getting a response? Worth Weller: anyone there? Worth Weller: now, can you "see me" Iskandar Hack: Now I see you Worth Weller: Hi again Chris Worth Weller: I've just been trying to figure out this "microphone" business Worth Weller: Beranrd, are you there? Chris Huang: hi Worth Weller: sorry for the typos!! Iskandar Hack: Hello Chris, I see that you were able to get into the system. Chris Huang: Yes. Worth Weller: Chris - did you say earlier you are from Carbondale? Chris Huang: From Kent, Ohio. Chris Huang: And where are you all from? Worth Weller: ah yes, Kent State - hard to forget Kent State - i was in the army when the Guard shot the studnets there. Bunches of us were like really stunned. Chris Huang: No kidding. Worth Weller: I teach at IPFW Chris Huang: Oh, I see. Worth Weller: exactly - sorry everyone always associates Kent State with that - must get old Worth Weller: okay, what brings you to this session Chris? Chris Huang: Dr. Albert Ingram is my teacher. He encourage us to attend the conference. Chris Huang: So far this is the second conference I attend in this semester. Worth Weller: cool - what does he teach? Chris Huang: He is our Instructional Technology teacher. Worth Weller: so, then, what is your goal, what would you like to get out of this session? Chris Huang: He is sponsoring our own teaching improving confereces this semester. Worth Weller: good - how to improve "online" teaching - or all teaching? Chris Huang: Tell you the truth I have not think of that yet. Chris Huang: I am just interested in anything about teaching and technology. Worth Weller: hah - okay, tell me, what kind of goals do you have for your own life/career? Worth Weller: okay - that works Chris Huang: At this stage, I have to pass my comperhasive exam in January. Then hopfully finish my paper, then be a teacher in higher education institution one day. Worth Weller: Let me start by pointing out that I teach 100 level and 200 level wirting courses for the English Department at IPFW, some are online and some are face to face Worth Weller: I love teaching in higher education - I love the studnets, and the colleagues too - great goal Chris Huang: Wow, Chris Shunn from Carnagie Malon U is kind of like that too. He teaches the same thing. Chris Huang: He was our speaker 2 weaks ago. Chris Huang: weeks. Worth Weller: Okay - one of the challenges i face in teaching wirting, is of course, grading papers - all my studnets turn in papers EVERY week. Chris Huang: That's quite a bit of work you have to grade. Chris Huang: To you ever let them grade each other's works? Worth Weller: so that gets to be a lot of work outside of actual teaching, and a lot of soul searching too Worth Weller: Tha'ts a good point Chris - we do that with "peer review" Chris Huang: How successful is the peer review? Worth Weller: so when I see their paper, it's actually gone through one stage of "grading", by their peers Worth Weller: peer review really depens on how well you train and monitor the groups Chris Huang: I see. Worth Weller: I spend a whole class period in training,m complete with handouts, etc.; and for each peer review seesion I have a specific set of instructions for that particular paper, things I want the students to go over. Worth Weller: This is the first stp to take the grading burden off me. Chris Huang: Seems like a set of criteria will establishes the base for grading procedure. Worth Weller: exactly; great point; okay - why don't we go through my presentation real quickly - I think there are only 7 slides, then we'll go back to general discussion. Worth Weller: and chime in with questions or observations at any point Chris Huang: I don't seems to be able to access the pdf and doc files listed on the Agenda window. Are they suppose to be downloadable now... I just see them now. Worth Weller: I think you have to go back to your schedule and click on "view documents"for this session Worth Weller: let's do the little slide show for a moment - then we'll get back to general discussion. move your chat window over if you can so you can see the slides too. Chris Huang: Ok. Worth Weller: Okay - here's what I want to cover Chris Huang: Hmm.. Chris Huang: We have another visitor here. Shelly Gilliland: Well I'm finally here! I see that there is standing room only, Worth! You have quite a following!! Worth Weller: I really wrote this paper because I love the topic and hope to get it published, and this is how I teach all my classes, f2f and online Chris Huang: :) Worth Weller: sarcasm is the lowest form of humor shelly Worth Weller: did you meet Chris from the earlier session shelly? Worth Weller: she/he (no clue yet) is from Kent State Chris Huang: hi, Shelly. Chris Huang: No kidding. Worth Weller: lol Chris Huang: What department in KSU. Chris Huang: ? Shelly Gilliland: I didn't get a chance to meet anybody really... I was multi-tasking... Worth Weller: okay - ethical teaching, which is the topic of this conference, is essentailly being transparent about your own goals Shelly Gilliland: I know Worth from over a hundred years ago, actually... way off the subject though... thought it would explain my immediate sarcasm and humor! Worth Weller: and about using assessment practices that do indeed match those goals Worth Weller: so, shelly, you're about to teach a class I belie, so what do you want out of assessment? Worth Weller: you too - Chris - you've been a studne,t, you want to teach - what do you think are "ethical assessments?" Shelly Gilliland: I have to put on my thinking cap... all of my previous online experience has been as a student and/or a TA. I've "been assessed" for my performances in a chat room and I have assessed students' performance in moderated chats, thus far. Worth Weller: did you feel the assessments matched the goal of the class? Chris Huang: If I assess students, they will turn in either projects or portfolios. I am more of a visual person. Shelly Gilliland: In that environment - yes. I had 6-10 students in a chat room for 1-2 hours to discuss specific materials. It was fairly easy to ascertain if they had done their reading. Worth Weller: visual is good, Chris - real world expeirence Shelly Gilliland: In these classes they also took online exams and turned in papers. Worth Weller: lots of grading, in other words. Worth Weller: that leads us to the next slide - how do studnets learn? Worth Weller: Chris and i were talking about peer groups earlier, and admitting they only work with proper training and good monitoring, but those are place where learnign occurs Shelly Gilliland: yes... quite a bit of grading...by the prof or TA Worth Weller: Paulo Friere and others point out that you can't pour knowledge into a studnet's head Chris Huang: I guess you have to train your TAs too. Chris Huang: on grading, I mean. Worth Weller: So Chri's suggestion to let the studnets grade each other as much as possible would be part of Bruffee's conversation of knowledge Chris Huang: (By the way) Is there a way to save the slides? Worth Weller: foro me, I use self-assessmet to a very large dgree, because it makes the studnet have a conversation with herself about her own writing Shelly Gilliland: Worth - you have more experience with peer groups... do you find it pretty effective? Is it difference online than F2F? Worth Weller: that's a good question Chris - send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. Worth Weller: mine is wellerw@ipfw.edu Shelly Gilliland: But do you frequently get students whose assessment of their own work is not the same as your assessment? Chris Huang: OK, it's ideacircle@hotmail.com, thx. Worth Weller: I've not gotten online peer groups to work yet, Shelly - but I intend to really push this issue as I design next semester's course. Worth Weller: not really Shelly - becausek, as I point out in the paper, I've been asking themn to do this regularly all semester long, plus they know I see their work EVERY week and have done small reflections on it back to them Shelly Gilliland: Interestingly... in my ENG W131 and W233 courses (I had same prof for both)... we did peer review but I never found it helpful - FOR ME - b/c all my peers were younger than my children and they were reluctant to give me feedback. Worth Weller: that's where the training and monitoring of the peer group comes in Worth Weller: Leslie altimus is muc older than her peers, but she LOVES her peer group Shelly Gilliland: good point Worth Weller: Hi Laurie, Hi Scott Worth Weller: we've gotten a little sidetracked talking about peer groups andpeer grading and peer learning Chris Huang: hi everyone. Laurie DeHerrera: sorry I'm late - just got out of class and am trying to catch up to the conversation Shelly Gilliland: I think peer groups (F2F) often feel as though they are just doing busy work and the real grader is the prof. Worth Weller: but it does tie nicely into self-assessment. Worth Weller: that's where the conference memo and the regular self-assessment come iin - but you are right about that - which is why a semester long effort, with plenty of feedback, is vital Chris Huang: They don't have to grade the final paper, the students can give each other suggestions, a pre-assessment before the final one by the teacher. Worth Weller: so let me show how I do that Worth Weller: this slide shows how I structure my compostion course Worth Weller: In addition to weekly journals, which I grade weekly rather generically, we have four major papers Worth Weller: each paper is peer reviewed, and we usually conference in the peer group, the following week. Chris Huang: What's the (#) stands for? Worth Weller: I ask each student to prepare a conference memo,, and then the four or five of us sit down, and the first question I ask (in the memo and then again verbally) is how did the peer review go for them Worth Weller: oh chris - those are the citation from the paper, the page numbers where you can find the specific issue I'm talking about. Chris Huang: I see. Worth Weller: then I ask the studnet to go right back to the lab and write themselves a postconference meo, outlining their revision strategies that we brainstormed in conference Worth Weller: I don't actually look at this post conference memo, until I see it in their portfolio, so that saves me some paper load Worth Weller: However, I do ask themn at midterm, in a formal self-assessment that I do grade, the describe in detail how the class is gong for them, what is working,what they feel they are learning (specifically) and what they think their grade/performance is at that point Worth Weller: I actually grade this, telling them if I think their grade is on the money or not, with specific reasons Chris Huang: So the first formal feedback is at the middle of the semester? Not before? Worth Weller: to answer your earlier question, Shelly, a studnet can't write a "crappy" two-page essay about why they are prefoiming like an A student in my class! Shelly Gilliland: as a student I like the opportunity to grade myself... with my own reasoning... and then get feedback from the prof Worth Weller: Ah, good point, Chris Worth Weller: no, in conference I give them a provisional grade, whcih I record, and then brainstorm with them what they must do to move that paper up a grade or two Worth Weller: does that make sense? Worth Weller: yest - quick and regular feedback from the prof is crucial Shelly Chris Huang: can't click on the link Chris Huang: I see it now. Worth Weller: if you click on the link that should have just appeared, you can see a graphic visualization of my self-assessment process Worth Weller: I consider the "reflective" memo (Iwhich is the conference memo, to be a major part of this process Chris Huang: Which stage they begin writing the final draft on each paper? Chris Huang: do Chris Huang: typo. Worth Weller: and my paper, which you can download after this session, has in the Works Cited list a great article lby Jeffrey Sommers how to guide the student trhogh writing a conference memo Shelly Gilliland: Good visual model, Worth. I can see that they get a good feel lfor the process early. Worth Weller: nice question Chris - with this scenario, they can write the final draft any time they want - I don't see it until they turn in their portfolio Shelly Gilliland: Well, at least the potential is there! I think one of the biggest faux pas of online learning is the assumption that you can wait "till the end" and do EVERYTHING and still get an A. Worth Weller: ah , good point Shelly Worth Weller: I structure my online W233 class deliberately so they can't get away with that! Chris Huang: How big is the usual class size? Worth Weller: I see their wrok every week, and major portions of their progress toward their pepr every three weeks or so Shelly Gilliland: I think online profs have to consider the reasons WHY students take online classes and make sure they aren't penalized for wanting to "work ahead" Worth Weller: HI Anita Worth Weller: Okay, moviong on, this is not a perfect system Worth Weller: if you can see the next slide..... Shelly Gilliland: Potential problems slide? Worth Weller: about Potential problems and concerns Shelly Gilliland: got it Worth Weller: Lis Delpit wanrs that thisis a very middle-class approach Worth Weller: not all studnets repsond well, for a variety of reasons Shelly Gilliland: can you expound briefly on that? the "middle class" part? Worth Weller: Lisa, not Lis Shelly Gilliland: middle as in social? or middle as in student performance? Worth Weller: yep - it assumes that students are actually prepared for this class, that they came from backgrouns where "self-reflection" is encouraged Worth Weller: social, really Worth Weller: Delpit points out that some students need, and deserve, a more hands on approach where the teacher does more teaching and less so-called coaching. Shelly Gilliland: aha. so it's a problem with "middle or below middle" but not "above middle?" very interesting ... give my sociology background Worth Weller: grammar, for instance Worth Weller: I dont know that this approach is totally feasible for W130 Worth Weller: this approach is also a little "delusional" Shelly Gilliland: great observation. and an interesting component is that you don't "have a visual" of the student so you (the prof) are ascertaining this via online communication Worth Weller: we sorta pride ourselves on being value neutral Shelly Gilliland: while you can't judge a book by its cover... Worth Weller: on emporing the student Shelly Gilliland: but isn't this easier in the traditional classroom than it is online? Worth Weller: and yet self-assessment is still clearlyseen by the studnets as being yet another took to just "grade" them Worth Weller: sorry for the typos Shelly Gilliland: Q: can you empower students just as quickly and easily online as in F2F? (I need to stop talking!) Solomon Isiorho: :) Worth Weller: one couls also say this creates even more paper, what with all these memo and reflections Worth Weller: but I make the studnets keep those and turn them in again with their portfolios Worth Weller: :-) indeed Worth Weller: no - all this is much harder on line - but VISTA makes it work, by the way Worth Weller: I LOVE the VISTA assignment page - clearly organizes the studnets, autotmatically records the grade for each bit of paper (iassignment) in the gradebook, and let's you go back and find graded assignemtns quickly Worth Weller: an other caveat, as you alluded too Shelly, sometimes studnets will really write"suck up" refelctive assessments Chris Huang: :) Worth Weller: I tell them don't bother to suck up to me unless they want to send me their VISA card number!! Shelly Gilliland: but those are easily seen through... right? Shelly Gilliland: And how many VISA #'s do you have??! Worth Weller: plus,m I'm actually grading these assessments on the same criteria I grade a per - detail, focus, etc. Worth Weller: okay - that's my presentation - let's do response and Q & A now!! Chris Huang: how about logic and flows. Shelly Gilliland: (I'm going to observe now and let the others talk! I have to leave in a few minutes) Worth Weller: elaborate please? Chris Huang: For undergraduate students do you have problem following their thoughts in writing? Worth Weller: lol Solomon Isiorho: I apologise for being stuck in cyber space Worth Weller: oh yes, but I'm not trying to assess their thinking - only that they are thinking and that they are donig a good job of supporting and shwoing how theise thoughts were derived Chris Huang: Mental organizational skill are not as polish I persume. Chris Huang: I see. Worth Weller: well', in compostion we teach "transtions" Worth Weller: in which you simply tell the reader, in som manyh words, how your logioc is flowing onto the paper. Worth Weller: organization relates to focus in compostion - is the essay focused? are the paragraphs focused"?at kind of thing Worth Weller: Hey Solomon - want me to send William Shatner or Luke Skywlaker to rescue you! Solomon Isiorho: I sure would appreciate it Shelly Gilliland: We had the voice of Darth Vader on campus last night--that would have been perfect! LOL Worth Weller: Okay - what other kinds of reflections or questions are there about this approach? I think it would work in a lot of disciplines Kathy Harris: Hello everyone~ I have also been lost in cyber space with Solomon. I have been on line for a while and reading all of your informative comment. Great paper, Worth! Shelly Gilliland: I will definitely think about it in the SOC world. Students need early feedback... not having to wait till the midterm. Chris Huang: What about motivation, how do you deal with students if they become frastrated in writing. Worth Weller: If you all want to read the paper, I think you can click on it's name at the top of the agenda items on the left, or youj can go to your schedule page and click on "view documents" Laurie DeHerrera: I teach computer literacy on-line - they work through assignments and take tests. I tried a group project through Blackboard Discussion board, but many didn't "get into it". Worth Weller: Laurie - Blackboard or VISTA discussions have to be graded in order to work. Worth Weller: absolutley no way around that - too bad, but true Worth Weller: I use a command find and count the number of posts, and assign grades that way. Worth Weller: Thanks Kathy Chris Huang: Hey Kathy Worth Weller: Ah, another good question, Chris - motivation. Chris Huang: I finally see you. Worth Weller: I'm a 60s guy (not that I remeber any of it!!) so I'm very into self-esteem and the touchy feely stuff Worth Weller: so I start the semester being very gentle - sometimes I'm accused by studnets of being too gentle Laurie DeHerrera: good point - I have incorporated a graded "wrap-up" posting to discuss what was interesting about the unit covered - that has worked well Worth Weller: ah - great suggestion Laurie - thanks Worth Weller: Shelly's point that early feedback is important Worth Weller: is a great one' Worth Weller: evenin my face to face classes I do all my gradiong online, as I can do it quickly, and my turnaround time is under 48i hours usually Laurie DeHerrera: I find online grading is slower than paper Worth Weller: I don't make laborious marks on papers, just some reflections back to them on what I observe; I particualry use this approach with the weekly journals Kathy Harris: Worth, can you discuss a little about performance goals and mastery goals and how you embed both of these goals into assessment for your students? Chris Huang: That's pretty fast. 48 Hours. Laurie DeHerrera: thanks for the info! - off to class Worth Weller: thanks, kathy. It might be alittle easier in a compostion class, where writing is really about mastery - about learning how to be your own "editor" - learning how to see for yourself what needs reviding Worth Weller: so, I expect themn to "know" what transitions are, but i eqwually expect themn to "recognize" whenand where they are failking to use them and to "undersantd" the value of them Worth Weller: does that make sense? Worth Weller: and my point, is that myown assessment needs to be about mastery - whichI see as a semester long process, ending or culminating in the portfolio Worth Weller: by Laurie - thank you too!! Kathy Harris: In your paper I also agree with you that our task as teachers is to be facilitators and point the students in the right directions to cheer them on. This also will increase their confidence in writing--right? Worth Weller: I actually think that a lot of writing is about confidnece I(altho I have seen some over-confident writers) Worth Weller: Imeanm how many students, particularly uoung women, say to you, "I'm really not a very good writer." Worth Weller: I'm often sorta bowled over by the amount of that I get. Worth Weller: where did they learn that? or who told them that? Kathy Harris: Can you describe some criteria that could be included in a rubric for writing that is discussed in your paper? Worth Weller: focused paragraphs, starting with clear topic sentences that are supported with detail and outside sources (text, Ebsochost, personal experience), withproperly integrated quotes, and with a final sentence sorta wrapping up the paragraph or shwoing how the quote or story related to the topic sentnece Kathy Harris: They (young women) could believe they are poor writers from previous elementary and high school experiences from previous teachers.. Worth Weller: whichof course must relate to the topic of the essay Worth Weller: I very big on that - its what I think studnets have the hardest time with Worth Weller: then I spend a ton of time on transtions, introductions with well crafted thesis statements, and conclusions that match the intros Worth Weller: And I also stree detail - I find that younger students, tradtional first-year studnets,are oftenfairly clueless on this Worth Weller: That's the feeling I get kathy - that they've had teachers who loved the red pen routine. Kathy Harris: I totally agree! Worth Weller: yes - Kathy, almost makes me angry Iskandar Hack: Hate to say this - about 5 min before you lose the room. Worth Weller: yet I hate to rundown high school teahcers, because they have their work cut out for them, and I've seen somw wonderful young writers too Worth Weller: well, we are having fun, aren't we hack? Worth Weller: I love chat Worth Weller: have had wonderful classroomexperiences with this Solomon Isiorho: :) Worth Weller: particular with hard-driving female nursing studnets Iskandar Hack: It was a great session, I just sat back and watched. Kathy Harris: You can see this in students not only in writing skills but also math and science too. I believe confident writing skills are essential for all students in the working world today. Worth Weller: they tend to like to work hard but have fun at the same time! Worth Weller: Thanks hack - I've enjoyed it - los of great questions. Worth Weller: Where are you from kathy? Worth Weller: I wish I had asked laurie that. Kathy Harris: I am a graduate student in early childhood education at Kent State University --I am taking the College Teaching course this semester with Dr. Ingram. Worth Weller: Shnellyhis from IPFW too,as is hack Worth Weller: Oh good - another Kent State personm as is Chris Solomon Isiorho: You may be able to get that info from the registrar's office Worth Weller: earlyh chidlhood education - our oldest daughter isdoing that same thing as a grad studnet at IU - cool Worth Weller: okay - time to go - THANKYOUY all so ever much!! great grou Worth Weller: please fill out the evaluation - this conference depends on that Worth Weller: thanks! Kathy Harris: Thanks Worth! Worth Weller: my pleasure Rosemary Plank: Is anyone having trouble with audio? Chris Huang: http://ladybug.lrdc.pitt.edu/sword3/ Solomon Isiorho: There is no audio Solomon Isiorho: at this time Rosemary Plank: thanks - I was in for about a half hour... Rosemary Plank: and nothing came through excepts some spurts of conversation Rosemary Plank: Was there ever audio?